The Ideal 3D Sonic Game?

It's not easy to define the ideal 3D Sonic game.
Sonic Adventure got it right with the general look of the levels, but the games which came after started one of the things that bugs me more in modern Sonic:
Too much buttons.


This is true especially in Sonic Unleashed. In the classic games, you didn't need more than a button. The controller had 3 buttons, but they had the same function. Jump? Press a button. Spindash? Press down and a button. Insta-Shield? Press a button in air. The Sonic games were simple to control and easy to understand, but they were still a challenge thanks to the great level design.

To me, the ideal 3D Sonic game should return to this. Instead of filling the various buttons with moves (I'm not saying those aren't cool) or letting Sonic to learn new moves during the game, they should make a game where you jump regardless of the button you press. Since the 3D games needs all 4 directions, there could be the need for a second button for the Spindash, but it is just a plus.

So the controls could be:

A: Jump
B: Jump
C: Spindash
D: Spindash
Stick: Move

End. No additional moves, no additional buttons. You have all of your skills since the beginning. Only the level design stands between you and the final boss.

Sonic Adventure does it right if you think about it. You had a button to jump and another button for additional moves. But those additional moves started to take more buttons in the following games. And now we need 4 buttons to have full control over Sonic.

 

First, why is Spindash mapped to those buttons instead of crouch?

Second, I think trying to simplify the controls at this point would be a bland decision. Look, back in the days of 8-Bit, Mario jumped. But today, he can do all sorts of various jumps depending on your input. Now what if the next Mario game decided to appeal to 8-Bit gamers and take away those fancy jumps? Not only that, but they would slow Mario down and map his running to a button. There, now all Mario can do is jump and run, just like in the old games!

Diversifying a control scheme does not make it bad. Mapping those controls in awkward ways, however, is what can do a game in.

EDIT: And those 4 Buttons, my friend, are not that hard to figure out. Jump is A, Boost moves are mapped to X, and B controls ground oriented moves. Y could be considered a sort of Action button, as Light Dash is a sort of context sensitive move.

 

Did I already say that the Light Dash should be removed from Sonic games? Well just to be sure:

Light Dashing should be removed from Sonic games.
It provides Sonic with the ability to accelerate and traverse obstacles in unnatural ways. Every gap that does not have a gadget to assist Sonic's traversal should be easily overcome by Wall Running. Not Wall Jumping. Wall Running.

 

I like the idea of just spin dash and jump - works in my mind.

Expand on the daytime levels of Unleashed - Camera behind Sonic for fast moving action, proper badniks (lose the crappy robots), more flying badniks that you can destroy by jumping while running.
For the platform parts, swing the camera round for the 2D view - old style sonic!

Unleash touched on the latter but it was under-developed. I reckon a total of about 18 segments on each level (9 dash, 9 platform) and depending on your route through the platforming segment, you'll play a through a total of 6 segments (assuming you play straight through from start to finish without exploring).

I think this would give it good replay value and the expanded platforming sections would ensure that the game is stretched out enough to avoid having to incorporate a ridicules novelty game attachment (aka warehog).

Scrap additional characters besides Tails and Knuckles. Controversial I know but they really annoy me.

Minimize talking! No references to chocolate, ice cream or any other food product. Keep it simple.

Scrap 'hub' worlds - why would anyone want to spend time wondering around talking to over the top, pointless characters that have no purpose other than to spout crap. Replace the intervals between levels with cut scenes - short and to the point.

In my eyes, Sonic is not on Earth. He's on Mobius. Not Earth. Mobius.


Anyway - it's not going to happen and I look forward to seeing, perhaps playing, the next bastardization of my childhood memories.

 

AFAIK, the layouts are unique.

 

Only slightly -- most levels are built like a slightly remixed version of the originals -- anyone familiar with the layouts of the levels in Sonic 2 will have little trouble blasting through the game. If SPA succeeds it is because it does not innovate but instead rehashes.

And jumping is borked anyway. I went back to it a while ago and got frustrated with the way jumping works and the bottomless pits in the toxic plant zone. What IS new definitely feels like the Dimps we may not like as much.

 

To me, the ideal 3D Sonic game scraps everything a modern Sonic game has ever done. It scraps the homing attack, the boost, the griding, the automatic gameplay, the additional characters and the ridicusly fast pace. It goes back to the roots of the series, in a try to implement the classic gameplay philosophy into 3D. It slows down, it has some serious platforming, and it builds on the interaction of the character with the ground. It also scraps the modern artwork, the cheesy voice acting, the whole "try to be cool" altitude and the realistic environments. In contrast, I'd personally prefer if there wasn't any dialog at all and everything was presented in silent scenes, through the expression and the move of the characters. Also, a Sonic game needs to have surreal environments, there's no room for a realistic looking world, in game where a fast blue hedgehog stars in. The enemies also need to be redesigned, from "impersonal" robot machines, to unique cartoony looking enemies.

<div align='center'></div>

Sonic Adventure was the only 3D Sonic game that tried to catch the essence of the classic games. Sure it's not classic Sonic, but it's not modern either. It stands somewhere between the classic and modern game philosophy, and SEGA could have build upon that formula. For a first try, (and a launch game) it was pretty damn good. The main problem with Sonic Adventure (from the classic formula perspective) is that it scraped some key elements of the 16bit games, thus, simplifying the game a lot. It scraped the interaction between the character and the ground (when in a slope you can roll down as a ball ect), the momentum based gameplay, the ability to use an enemy in the same way you could in the classic games (giving you height, depending on your jump), ect. Nonetheless, I can't blame Sonic Adventure, as I regard it as a very experimental title. Red Mountain, adapted to the SA needs as it is, has to be the closest thing we've ever seen, in achieving a proper conversion of the 16bit level design, to 3D.

The most important condition in an attempt to make a good Sonic game, (classic or modern) is the good physics. Even if you make the perfect Sonic game, everything will go in vain, if you don't have a proper physics engine to accompany it. A good example is the 8bit Sonic games. If I try replaying the 8bit games today, with the exception of the first one, all the other just don't feel right. They are ruined because of their ancient and screwy physics. They're still great games level design wise, but the physics just ruins them, making them a hell of a lot less playable than the 16bit titles. Physics was also the main reason why the first Sonic Advance couldn't keep up with 16bit games. Physics is the main reason, why the 16bit games are fully playable to date. The first thing SEGA needs to do, is to build a good physics engine capable of suiting the Sonic philosophy. With the slight exception of Sonic Adventure 2, no other 3D Sonic game had a suitable physics engine.

Gameplay wise, scrap the boost, the speed pads, the grinding, the homing attack. Bring back the old school spin dash, the rolling, the different types of ground you can interact with, the shields, the power ups. One thing that bothers me though is the way moves like the bouncing and the double jump should exist (via shields or directly to Sonic). Finally, I wouldn't mind a nice hub world, but only if it's purpose was limited to optional events that don't affect the flow of the game. Talking to npc's, adventuring, mini games, side quests ect, are all good, but only if you don't have to do any of these stuff during the main game.

Using the 360 pad the controls would be something like this:

Left Analog Stick: 360 degree movement
Right Analog Stick: 360 degree camera movement

Type 1Double Jump and Bouncing are given directly to Sonic, extra abilities, like fireball or anything new, require the right shield)

A: Jump (x2 = Double Jump)
B: Action 2 (A + B = Insta-Shield/ Shield Ability)
X: Action 3 (A + X = Bouncing)
Y: No use

Type 2All extra abilities require the right shield)

A: Jump (x2 = Insta-Shield/ Shield Ability)
B: No use
X: No use
Y: No use

L Trigger: Look Up
- (+ A = Super Peel Out)

R Trigger: Crouch
- (+ A = Spin Dash)
- (You can roll down a slope just by pushing the right trigger while running)

 

I apologize for what I'm about to say, but that control scheme is kinda crap.

The biggest problem I notice is that two of the three action buttons have extremely limited use. While I admire that the controls are mapped to a limited number of buttons, I dislike how you do not take full advantage of that limited real estate. Only the Jump button is fully fleshed out; the rest have much squandered potential.

Not only that, but I don't think boosting should be removed entirely. It has become too integral to gameplay, yes, but it can still be present if it is not crucial to the player's success and/or something is put in place to prevent abuse of boosting abilities.

Here's a revised version.

Left Stick: Move
Right Stick and all Shoulder Buttons: Camera controls.

A: Jump
B: Peel-Out, Speed Boost while in motion.
Y: Crouch, Spin while in motion.
X: Activate Shield Ability

A+A: Move towards an enemy in midair without accelerating.
A+B: Accelerate towards an enemy.
A+Y: Drop onto an enemy directly below.
Y+B: Spin-Dash (Crouch and rev up).

 

I'm going to have to go with a big fat NO on this one. Sonic has and always will be third-person. If you play in first-person, what's the point of it even being Sonic?

 

Putting a platformer in first person makes a whole new problem - You can't see your feet.

I think I have a sort of workable camera system for Sonic:

Each object has a certain "priority" assigned to it, and the camera will try to move to show higher priorities things. If something is coming up from behind the camera, it would zoom out. It would also be made aware whenever the majority of the occlusion is taking place close to the camera in order to show "what's over this hill"/"down there".

Scripted cameras... just don't offer enough flexibility and first person cameras don't have enough peripheral vision.

Edit: Loggo's a genius... except I don't see why so many people seem to really think Sonic needs a double jump (And I prefer my control scheme).

 

Here's an idea. If targeting enemies is such a hassle, then how about making it so that when Sonic gets within 3 feet of the enemy, he'll automatically gravitate toward it and hit it, provided he's not below the enemy.

Now then...

Controls while not running:
Left Stick: Movement (hold to start running)
X: Jump
O: Crouch (hold to crouch, release to stand)
/\: Peel-Out (hold to charge, release to launch)*
X+[]: Insta-Shield / Shield Ability
O+Left Stick: Dodge roll in direction of Left Stick
O+/\: Spin Dash (Hold O to crouch, Tap /\ to charge, Release O to launch)*

Controls while running:
Left Stick: Steer
X: Jump
O: Spin
/\: Quick Peel-Out*
X+[]: Insta-Shield / Shield Ability
O+/\: Qucik Spin Dash*

*All /\ moves consume Ring Energy. Collect Rings to refill.

 

How about:
Left stick = MOVE
Right stick = CAMERA
BUTTONS = JUMP

Optional: have one of the face buttons or shoulder buttons map to CROUCH. CROUCH while running to start rolling. CROUCH at a standstill and press jump to start charging a spindash.

Why complicate things further?

If you absolutely must somehow make it easier to hit enemies, either have a sort of weak gravity making sonic auto-line up with an enemy if he gets close enough, or just have hazy collision - if sonic is going fast, the collision box for enemies is a little larger than the enemy itself (player won't notice that they destroyed it from three feet away because they're going OMG FAST). If sonic is going slow, have it about the same size as the enemy.

But in the end, the user only has to worry about four controls, and they apply universally: MOVE, CAMERA, JUMP, CROUCH. No complicated button-mappings (which end up being controller specific), no alternating between "fast-mode" controls and "slow-mode" controls. The same user experience all the way throughout, with the backend doing all the work modifying things.

 

Have you ever TRIED holding O and tapping Triangle at the same time?

Why overcomplicate moves like the insta-shield like this?

 

RedStripedShoes, I've tried to be nice to you, but to put it quite frankly, your control schemes kind of suck.

Edit:

Put the last joint of you're thumb on O, use the tip to tap triangle.

 

Can be annoying to pull off though, unless you get used to it.

 

I'm sorry, is it too complicated for you? Where did I lose you? Was it the Peel-Out? The Insta-Shield? Jumping? Well since you seem to be unable to process even the most minimal of button schemes on today's consoles, why don't I make it real easy for you.

Left Stick Up: Run Forward.

Yay! Now everybody can play it, even Phos! :specialed:

 

Hi, I'm an uncalled for post.