Sonic Forces Thread

Sega probably uses a typical physics library package that is difficult to configure for something as unrealistic as "classic Sonic physics" without much effort. Friction and air resistance usually exist, and not using script objects would mean building the levels around the character physics rather than "whatever looks good." In other words, there is too little time as well as too little energy that Sega bothers to allocate.

 

The games industry at large has trended towards linearity from the early 2000s up until relatively recently, because every alternate route you add to a map factorially increases its volume and complexity. It isn't even as simple as saying you could reinvest the time you'd have spent developing two linear maps into one large open-ended map, because all of those routes need to interconnect in logical and meaningful ways. A truly solid level design means having to fill in all of the negative space created with a bifurcation in the map's structure, which then branches off into new routes and subroutes that need to flow without confusing the player and leading them down the wrong path backwards. And all of those new quarters of the map need to offer something unique and fun to reward the player's exploration. Designing for multiple routes in 3D is really fucking hard.

I'd even go so far as to say that multiple routes in level design (as opposed to open world level design, which is a compromise for evoking the excitement of exploration without necessitating thoughtful design on the part of the architects) are the hallmark of a passionate developer, a person who enjoys exploring their own world as much as the player should. It's a luxury because it isn't visibly adding anything to a game that's already functioning, and it isn't a selling point you can advertise beyond a bullet point on the back of the box which, if read, means they've already succeeded in securing interest some other way. It's something you have to fight publishers tooth and nail for when deadlines start getting pushed back. Bottom line, open level design flourished and died with the fifth console generation because everyone had that passion with the advent of 3D, and the standards hadn't been set yet for pragmatic directors to start pulling the reins in.

 

I don't see Forces benefiting without it. Generations had so little momentum I didn't even notice this existed until I went back and lost my speed looking at something to the side. This is more indicative that the boost game's design weren't focusing on acceleration or keeping your speed anyway. And by the looks of Forces, Modern Sonic's gameplay more or less looks the same, along with level design as far as its focus goes.

Nah, that doesn't make all that much sense. What I would say is that making an open world platformer is a massive challenge under any standard, but I wouldn't say that making a game open world makes it objectively worse a decision. If you have any issues with open worlds and cheapening the core game, point your finger at those who don't want to expend the budget or proper research in making it work, not the core concept. It's a design decision; can be good or bad depending on implementation.

 

@Digital Duck

Imma let you finish but Sonic 3 was one of the highest selling Sega Genesis titles of all time. In seriousness, it definitely was. Top 10 along with S&K.

No one in any universe would consider that a failure, commercially or critically. It scored very well at both. Its predecessors did better with sales due to system packaging and marketing but by Sonic 3 the market had become oversaturated with SEGA consoles. Sonic 3 was criticized by some for seeming too similar to Sonic 2 (those who hadn't played it) but it was just as commonly praised for improving the formula and presentation of the game. Many even considered Sonic 3 the best game in the series before S3K was a thing. I remember this chatter back then as well, as well as the very high marks in gaming review magazines.


So its no surprise to me that people are raving about Mania and it is definitely beyond these forum walls. Forces may end up doing better because of download only, but I do expect Mania to review higher. And it may surprise us and do better in sales as well, depending upon the post E3 reaction.

 

No denying. For a glimpse at open world done right, see GTAV and (especially) Dying Light- the former is an extreme case where virtually every structure in the urban half of the world map is custom made, something only the largest game studios on earth could ever achieve. The latter is a more traditional approach with the world being comprised mostly of modular prefabs, but because they made high sensitivity platforming a focal point, they were driven to accommodate with a more utilitarian approach that prioritizes fun traversal with an emphasis on verticality and the most extensive use of explorable interiors I've seen in a game. They did a good job of hiding the seams. I hear Mirror's Edge Catalyst did an even better job at integrating platforming and conscious design in an open world setting.

Regardless, the methodology is a tool of convenience above all else, which is why open worlds are ubiquitous in AAA titles right now: the march for bigger, flashier experiences necessitates bigger worlds without unduly taxing production. "Open world" describes any contiguous playspace where the player is guided by objectives over geometry, it's implicit structure over explicit structure (mission icons on a map vs. "I wonder where that tunnel leads"). An open world requires more assets, but is significantly easier to design because you don't need to account for the player's thoughts and actions at every given moment. The trade-off is that this approach dilutes authorial intent, and consequently the extent of the impact you can have on a player, because you can't count on "emergent gameplay" in a sandbox to consistently wow your audience. Developers try to offset this with progression-critical missions through one-off setpieces that are given their full attention, but they're traditionally linear in nature because of a dependency on scripted events.

"Open world" is shorthand for "filler". An open world that's consistently unique and thoughtfully designed is simply the "multiple routes" methodology taken to its furthest extreme, which isn't impossible, but you'll encounter diminishing returns at that point. Worlds don't need to be massive, and they don't need to be contiguous, either- honestly I'd prefer them not to be, as a single playspace restricts you to a single environment, with only changes in geography and climate to distinguish one zone from another. I'd rather cut to black and jump from Paris to Tibet without having to cook up some hackneyed explanation for an architectural and cultural shift on the same 40 square mile island.

 

^All around good points. But as for the multiple paths taken to the extreme vs open world kind of thing, keep in mind Fallout 1 and 2 are both some of the most linear and open games I've ever played. You can't walk from one town to another, rather you go to an overworld map that's completely empty at the start and you just kind of figure things out as you go. Then while traveling from one destination to another you get into random encounters, Dragon Quest style. Out side of exploring a whole lot (which is actually a valid first-time play style), the main story is typically experienced by the game encouraging you to go to established areas that teach you more about your destination and objectives, but you are never forced. The game in that sense is linear, and there is a very clear set of events that encourage you to go to another, there's even memorable specific moments as a part of the story, but it's still one of the most open games I've played. There are several ways of reaching that same progression point in the story, and heck, you don't even need to progress in the same way. It could take you as little as 14 minutes to beat Fallout 2 without any crazy speedrun tactic, and on average that game is about 30 hours. It is an open world by being multiple routes taken to its very extreme, vs, say Fallout 3, a more traditional open world. I'm just saying I wouldn't call that a divide, rather a different way to be an open world.
But as other people mentioned in this thread, the main replayability of Sonic games is time trialing. Cool for an arcade game, not so much for a full priced console game. The alternate paths we got from the classics doesn't even exist any more, at best we get to shave a few seconds off our best time. I like exploring in a game but I need an incentive to. In Sonic 3 & Knuckles and Sonic CD I found myself exploring around the level trying to make use out of what shields I can get, if I can beat the special stage, etc. Even more so in Sonic CD and trying to make the best use of what limited tries I have on time travel. Rings even served a purpose because "I've already used every ring in the stage and I'm positive the robot generator is near by..."

I doubt this is the case. From my short time doing stuff for Generations, it seems that while Havok is doing collision, player physics is its own thing, which makes perfect sense. I highly doubt that something like Havok or PhysX is precise or malleable enough to do something as basic as running up a loop or corkscrew. If you want this kind of physics in a platformer, you'll have to code it yourself, usually.

 

There's not much to go on as far as Forces itself goes. We've got gameplay footage that I don't even think hits the 2 minute mark.
As far as Bubsy goes, I feel it's likely a character creation kind of thing - so he might as well be Bubsy. The silhouette looked too over designed for a one shot character, and also, character creation was all the rage for Japanese console games for a few years. See Dragon Ball Xenoverse and Ultimate Tenkaichi. Once interest in Dragon Ball games went down (partially due to mediocrity) they pull out the character creation feature and suddenly interest spiked. Brian the Super Saiyan was finally canon and the world rejoiced.
EDIT: That's not to say Xenoverse wasn't an enjoyable game, but a character creation feature does help make up for some lost sales, and it's easy to market so I don't blame them.

 

Well if Boost is the way forward then I don't wanna hear anyone complain about paying full price for half a game, and I want to see big smiles all around with each new gimmick they implement to make ends meet. So we are all just going to talk in circles and pretend half a product is a full product, and I don't see how this can backfire...

 

I dunno about the rest of you, but I am excited for the game! I love the boost games, and I can't wait to try out the modern Sonic gameplay in this game. The new third character has me curious as well. The classic Sonic gameplay, erm, I am not so sure about. I mean, the way it has been handled so far...errrr....I am just not that impressed. Hopefully, later levels will be better.

 

Of course, because saying that a playstyle is good means that every single thing introduced to sit alongside that playstyle must be a good thing too. Like bacon? Have some soy sauce on your bacon. You must like it, because you like bacon!

 

Adding to this, Lobotomy already proved with his Fixing Generations Forever mod that getting decent Genesis-era physics is entirely possible to do. There's also a "No Automation" mod by SkyTheDestroyer that also gets rid of some of the automated / scripted elements in the game as well. Both mods combined allows classic Sonic to play much closer to the classics. This upload of Green Hill Act 1 showcases both mods in action.



IMO this would had been a pretty acceptable baseline for Forces, had Sonic Team been actually serious about producing more faithful Genesis gameplay, instead of remasking the modern Sonic physics/automation with a classic Sonic skin yet again that we've seen so far. Then again, physics wouldn't really amount to much if the level design is going to be like that GHZ upload--flat terrain and springs/automation all over the place. :/

Honestly I'd be really surprised if Mania did outsell Forces. Forces has the advantage of being a retail game, and its going to likely get the usual mainstream marketing such a product gets. Mania's going to be digital content (unless Sega decides the demand for Mania is strong enough to give the go-ahead to a physical release); and any marketing will likely be restricted to online/viral adverts (posters in Japan malls/Sonic train notwithstanding...and even then, it's Japan. They don't really care much for Sonic :v).

I am however fully expecting Mania to get significantly better reviews than Forces, when all is said and done.

 

Do things like this sound influential before you type them, or??

 

I think there's gonna be a lot of interest from fans who liked Gens and will want to try Forces because of it's similar design. Also, this is the first main series game not restricted to one console since 2011, so for example; a lot of PlayStation owners who haven't played a new Sonic game since Gens will be keen to try Forces.

I can see both Mania and Forces doing well in terms of sales. Mania will have an advantage in that it's cheaper and may also get a 3DS and mobile release. Also the media reaction has been overwhelmingly positive, whereas it's difficult to gage their reaction to Forces (they know the fanbase isn't happy seeing Green Hill again). Will also be interesting to see how Forces does on the Switch compared to Gens 3DS sales.

 

Two things to remember though. Sonic is a joke now. They could push that shit even more than they did when Sonic first hit store shelves and the actual interest would only be sustained if what we see is consistently pleasing. And judging from how response is half and half right now (and the first stage of the cycle has begun), I'm guessing that this will be another bargain bin Sonic game, that parents see and get for their kids cause Sonic's on the cover. So having mainstream marketing can only do so much for a mediocre or average product. Meanwhile, the most notable presence for Sonic, and the most well received has undoubtedly been online. The twitter, the youtube, forums, fan creations. And given how effective it's been at getting Sonic the positive response it needs, it'd make the most sense that anything associated with Sonic's social media outlets will get a wider audience to notice it. And unlike Forces, based on what we've seen, Mania actually looks promising. They've made it a point to keep things secret while still showing off some great stuff that will get people excited.

A physical release would probably help, but I don't think it's needed. As long as they keep everything under wraps, but still drop hints here and there to keep the hype alive, then I don't see any reason why Mania won't outsell Forces. Plus Mania comes out in the Summer, where it won't have to worry much about competition. Forces on the other hand, comes out Q4.

 

Sonics been a joke in the public eye for decades, you just weren't in on it till now.