Then they arguably don't know what they're doing. Shouldn't their priority be to please the fans? Who other than the fanbase is really purchasing Sonic games right now? There's not enough hype or brand reliability whenever a new Sonic game comes out to bank on bringing in newcomers to the series. Sonic's history as an IP isn't stable enough to encourage any outsiders into the franchise. The IP also isn't new or unique enough to draw in newcomers out of novelty and curiosity. If they knew what they were doing, they'd stop trying to needlessly pander to people who don't want Sonic. But this is likely more Sega's fault then Sonic Team, so if Sonic's not appealing to the masses they can't be blamed for it. If Sega can figure out how to please the fanbase and set Sonic under a single identity then they can find ways to branch out.
You might be overestimating how much our forum reflects the opinions of not just the masses, but of the fanbase. Because keep in mind: a large part of the fanbase also wants Sonic Adventure 3. And just going by the game's tone, focus on story, and inclusion of Sonic's bigger cast of characters like Silver and Chaotix in said story, I imagine this game is mainly meant to appeal to Sonic Adventure fans. Plus Classic Sonic is there to appeal to us, though they don't seem to be as successful with that as they are with appealing SA3 fans. Of course, that doesn't mean a Sonic game basically made for our part of the fanbase wouldn't sell well. Sonic Mania is basically that and it's looking pretty likely that that will be a pretty good success. Still I wonder which would sell better: a 3D Sonic game that this site would want, or Sonic Adventure 3. Cause the fanbase seems to be far more vocal about wanting the latter.
A real misuse of accessibility being thrown around here as it's being conflated with easy difficulty when it should be easy barrier to entry. Funnily enough Dark Souls 3 tutorial area and boss is an amazing example of this. Not going to defend past SoulsBorne games but this particular section in DS3 has been masterfully crafted. I just hope Fromsoft know what they did here rather than it being a fluke.
I kinda doubt people bought DS3 cause it was accessible though. Besides being the latest entry in a series known for being ridiculously hard, it was advertised as such. And I haven't played DS3, but the games before it aren't exactly easily accessible. Besides asking you to customise a character without having a good idea of what everything does, early on it's incredibly easy to take the much harder path instead of the path you're supposed to take. They don't exactly ease you into the games.
Maybe, but Sega and Sonic Team keep pushing this as, "the game for everyone". And from everything I've seen so far an "edgy" plot, Sonic's shitty friends, and linear rollercoaster like levels were things people outside the general fanbase criticize the series for. I'd imagine most non Sonic fans don't want an SA3 if they were to attempt to get into the series. But perhaps I'm looking in all the wrong places. That's just it though. Sonic is not a series generally known for being tough to get into. The classics were nice and simple, so much so that you didn't really need to get the games to have fun playing them. But the boost games, while not impossible to learn, already throw so much onto the player. There are all of these buttons that do all of this stuff, but half the time you don't even use most of them, as they're meant to work in very specific scenarios and situations. And the stages often reward players for being able to spot an incredibly obscure shortcut or secret, that unless you've played the level hundreds of times before you'd never know existed. I think that's what they mean. If you want to get the most out of the Boost titles you really have to dedicate to playing them the exact right way. But part of why Sonic was a hit to begin with was because you could approach it a multitude of ways.
I have to disagree here, accessibility has everything to do with making a good Sonic game. When I was 9 and my uncle bought round a Mega Drive with Sonic (1), everyone in the family could and did pick up and play it, and enjoyed it. It eased you in gently. If you where new to the game you could move around at a slower pace, then move around faster as your confidence grew. That was a key element in making the game have mainstream appeal. I'd like to see mum & dad try and understand Modern boost Sonic - no fucking way :v:
TimmiT I'm not defending past SoulsBorne games. With me being a SoulsBorne addict all the way back to when Demon's Souls was the only game on the market I've have plenty of insight where Fromsoft dropped the ball in their accessibility. I'm specifically taking about Dark Souls 3 tutorial area which has the accessibility masterfully crafted. Accessibility is about having an easy barrier to entry, not ease of challenge. It's all about the game teaching you the tools and mechanics with as little frustration as possible and even better make the teachings (tutorial) indistinguishable from the game.
Is Modern Sonic really that complex for a modern game though? Because even modern Sonic isn't that hard to explain. The core of modern Sonic is "you have to go fast and avoid the obstacles". And there are only really six abilities you need to keep in mind: moving around, jump, homing attack (which is an extension of the jump), boost, drift, and quick step. And out of those, only maybe the quick step I can really see making things a bit too complex. The rest can easily be seen as a combination of a platformer and an arcade racer.
I'm the wrong person to ask for an answer on that because modern Sonic games do not interest me one bit so I wouldn't know but, if you have grasped what accessibility really means then you should now have a good idea from your past playthroughs of modern Sonic games (if you're into them) what is accessible and what's not.
Would you say that the franchise in general is easily accessible though? Because I'm not talking about DS3 in particular, I'm talking about the franchise in general. I know the difference between an easily accessible game and a hard game, you don't need to tell me that. When I give something like Breath of the Wild as an example, I don't just give it because it's hard. I give it because it deliberately doesn't ease you into the game. Which is something past Souls games did as well. You know you don't have to give an answer to my posts if you don't have one. :v:
I've yet to hear anyone mention that a lot of gamers aren't looking to replay the same levels again and again to master them. A lot of people want a single play through of a decent length game. To get the most out of the boost games seems to require playing the levels again and again and again u till you master you twitch memory reaction. That's not wrong, it's just very niche. This is obviously very anecdotal, but I'm a huge Sonic fan, and I play all types of games, but the boost games just aren't appealing to me. And ya, shooting for Mario sales figures does seem like pie in the sky stuff today, but it didn't used to. I don't see how Sega can ever expect sales much better than Generations if it continues on its current path. This is sad. I swear the conversations on this site become so convoluted and overthought, when really the solutions are simple. You just gotta break a few eggs is all. Sega has all the ingredients they need to restore the brand, they are just sitting at the back of the pantry is all. They just need a dream team like Tax and Stealth from the transition period between classic and adventure. The accessibility and story driven gameplay of Adventure, the aesthetic and soul of the classics. The games will obviously still be beautiful as they are today, and they will still have some intense speed sections similar to the boost strategy. After all, adventure had moments of exhilarating speed too, it was just less obnoxious and more accessible. I see this whole Pro-boost thing as sort of an all-or-nothing arguement. You can have elements of boost gameplay retained while still maintaining a singular play style in the game. I mean, I'm gonna hammer this home again, BOOST has ever only been half a game anyway. What the fuck even is that?! These people defending it like it has a future if only a few bugs could be worked out... it's only possible for Sega to make half a game in boost, so like, that's the biggest problem there is. If boost is the right idea then why no game of 100% boost? There are LOTS of reasons why that we are all aware of, so let's just drop this act already...
Accessibility isn't the problem. Difficulty isn't the problem. The problem is that for the past decades(s) Sonic games haven't been worth $60. They aren't a whole lot of fun and they are like 6 hours of gameplay tops. Whereas Games like Skyrim, BotW, Even most Mario games, have 30 - 100 hours of gameplay. $60 for 6 hours of fun is $10/hr. Even going to a movie theater on opening night isn't that expensive. $60 for 60 hours of fun is much more reasonable. How many levels does super Mario 3D world have vs Sonic Generations? 5 times as many? Sonic games just aren't worth is for the average consumer. And they aren't worth it for the average gamer.
It's not complex, it's overblown with a million tiny things to do, none of which feel inherently like personal growth. You don't get better at drifting or quick stepping, you get it right. It's an extension of the tedium in the Adventure games where you'd pause every so often to use one of those new fangled abilities Sonic got, that they pretty much have to force you to use. Otherwise it'd get zero mileage out of you. In the original games, it was a nice constant flow of mechanics melding together and complimenting each other. And as you got better you were given more things to find and explore, and you got even more use out of things that seemed minuscule and minute before. But the nice thing was the game never punished you for not being the best at doing something, you could still play the game comfortably and have a blast. But now you pretty much need to get good at the game to really enjoy it. Most importantly, the classic formula was unique and distinct. It had similarities, but it was something that you could immediately and for the longest time ONLY associate with Sonic. It's part of what made it so easy to sell to people, and why it was easy to spot imitators and wannabes. Basically:
This circle jerk is still going? I feel like this isn't even about Sonic Forces anymore it's just Sonic in general. We're backseat developing a series that has been mismanaged to hell with developers trying to appeal to all the fanbases they created that are so different that the divide will never be fixed. What's the solution? Idk does it matter anymore? Mania exists, its sales will drive Sonic's future. Forces may be controversial but if mania does well it's inconsequential. I like the boost games. But the fandom is so divided that I'd be happy to have the 3d gameplay die. Adventure gameplay is too shallow to exist, boost is too intricate to enjoy. 3d sonic sucks, and the best and probably only solution is for it to fuck off and die. Want to fix the series that you think is so broken? But Mania, don't buy this game, and hope it'll reevaluate Sega's priorities. Otherwise what is the point of all this.
80% of the time the accessibility is great especially with the fact that it subtly blends into the world (e.g. messages being both tutorial and info from other players while having the option to skip over them with no interruptions was genius). But the funny thing is that while most parts are handled with care you get these moments where it's like a trainee designed them (e.g. DS1 made you pick up your starting equipment with an archer shooting at you). This unfortunately is the stuff people remember. I thought it was the polite thing to do as I didn't know if you were waiting for an answer off me specifically.
6 abilities is too much for allot of people. It sounds obvious but why was the Wii was so popular? Those games are ridiculously easy to pick up and play. Mario is still king of the mascots and wildly popular because anyone can pick up a new Mario game knowing it will be easy to get into. Modern Sonic may be easy for fans used to the style, but for allot of people that don't really play games all that much, there's way too much going on. 'Why did I just go through those hoops? And why is Sonic doing random tricks when he passes through them? Grinding - is this a late 90's extreme sports game?' And these are the people that Sega is trying to win back, I'm assuming. I could be wrong, and Sega is happy with Modern Sonic being more of a niche thing.
Yeah, this is way more likely a big reason for why Sonic games don't sell well, at least not at full price. It's why 3D Sonic games used to try to have less fast paced levels that take longer to finish, or made you replay levels as different characters or with different objectives. The kind of Sonic game people here want isn't something that people want from a full price game. Really it's probably one of the reasons why Sonic Mania will likely sell well. While that will probably be a two hour long game at most, it will also probably be sold at 15 or 20 bucks. Really? Because Mario Kart, a spin-off about as successful as the main Mario games, doesn't ask for that much less than modern Sonic does at its hardest. At its core it asks you to accelerate, steer, drift, and use items. Then there's figuring out how to use the items most effectively. Then you can also figure out how to get the best boosts out of drifts. How to use or get to the shortcuts, which often ask you to have certain items on hand. And then also how to get boosts out of jumps. Mario Kart games are simple on the service, but do have quite a bit to learn if you want to get good times on the courses. Easy to play, but rewarding to master. Now what if you could similarly apply that to boost Sonic? What if boost Sonic's core was easy to understand and get the hang of, but to get the best times you'd need to master the controls. I've never said boost Sonic is perfect, I've said it can be improved. That includes it being made easier to understand for players.
How is it inconsequential? If anything it makes the series look worse. A couple of fans coming in and making a more well received, higher selling game than Sonic Team? I don't get what's so inconsequential about that. The series cannot persist in the manner Sega wishes it to as a 2D only franchise. Having a Mania game on the side every once and while would be cool, but it can't be the norm. But unfortunately, boost Sonic can't be the norm as well, since it relies heavily on various elements that take up a lot of development. The reason this became about Sonic in general is because the series is in a bad spot now, and Sonic Team and Sega's solution was to do Generations 2, say it isn't Generations 2, add more potential bullshit, let indie devs make a 2D game, and then expect everyone to be okay with them basically making Generations 2 and not really improving upon it. Or at the very least not showing us what they improved. We've seen 30 whole second of Modern Sonic gameplay and it looks exactly the same as ever. "Oh, but we've only seen 30 seconds. it's not the whole game", but it's what they felt comfortable showing us. If they're attempting to surprise us, then they've already screwed themselves, since that stunt has only gone sour so many times in the past. It may not be a problem now, but if they keep pulling this shit, then it will be a problem in the future. And that makes me worry. So of course, I and so many others are likely to express those worries as it relates to this game in particular. I just want the series to be amazing again, and that can totally happen. Just throwing in the towel and being okay with, "being okay", isn't enough. Especially when they've have more than a decade to bring the series back to glory, and have yet to do it.
I feel Dark Sonic's post was out of frustration more than anything, and I have to agree after having a few beers. I can't see myself coming back to 3D Sonic any time soon, so the fact that we have Mania for us retro dudes and Forces for the newer fans is pretty good. Better than a few years back anyway. Man I feel so lame for giving into Sega's terms.
^ lol well yes i have been drinking as well. They saw that generations did well, they're doing it again. Obviously, as their last attempt at different failed (lost world or boom take your pick). What would you expect their response be? Different? The same? No response could please anyone at this point. They have like 10 gameplay style fans now, they can't please everyone. And why wouldn't only 2d work? Segas a shell at this point and it's not a console producer. It hardly seems to care. And Kirby has been 2d forever and it's doing fine. Sonic competed with Mario once but newsflash, 20 years of mediocrity and failure have sealed Sonic's fate. Accept that it's a niche, hope it returns to 2D, or let it die. Ya it sucks but how much more experimentation can this series have? Almost 20 years of 3D gameplay. This is it. By all means Sonic should have died in 2006. But life support has him here. At this point just stick with what works and run with it. Anything else is a waste of time. I'm sorry I want Sonic to succeed but fuck, the 90s and early 2000s are gone. Sonic is no longer a driving force. It's relevance is memes and the good ol days. Any other series would have died by now but the fact that we have Mania is pretty cool. Hope that that drives this series forward. It's Sonic's only hope.
