That was annoying but despite that it was still a more sound game. Not great, but definitely better than the shiny plastic affair that was Ep 1.
Tag moves weren't that bad, honestly. The way I see it, it's probably moreso that while episode 1 was a really awkward and low-effort nostalgia grab, episode 2 just came off of the heels of Generations and just didn't do enough to really improve itself since it was still filled with constricting/automated level design and, overall, a lack of significant soul still. Also garbage and time-wasting boss fights.
I am grown up DigitalDuck, and I have a job during the day. That's why I can't reply to the bulk of unvetted information that you're throwing up here. Ultimately it doesn't matter to me anyway, you want to believe the series is on an upswing, so be it. I just get frustrated that even Sega is aware they have a problem, and you aren't.
Sega said they aren't making Generations 2, remember. They are aware that the boost style of game isn't practical to stand on it's own or for development purposes, that's why they keep padding the games. That's why this isn't Generations 2, but it really is... You think Sega is going to make Generations 3 also, that they will just keep sticking classic Sonic beside modern Sonic indefinitely? Doesn't this show you how problematic the boost play-style is? It's only half a game. Sega doesn't want to admit it. They keep changing up the play-styles and farming out their IPs trying to see if someone else can make it work. Boost gameplay only ever sort of worked in a few games, and even then it was only half a game. Same situation here. Generations did well particularly because it was an anniversary game, and now they've brought the same gimmick back, even though the anniversary is over. This is my last post on the matter. So enjoy the last word.
Sega also said that there was no Classic Sonic, that the Sonic in Sonic 1 and the Sonic in Sonic 4 were the same Sonic. Sega also said that Classic Sonic was only for Generations and wouldn't reappear. Sega saying they aren't making Generations 2 means nothing, when we both know that's what this is. If the boost style of game isn't practical, then why do they keep doing it? You say they recognise the problem. No, I don't. I think (and hope) that they'll learn that people don't really like their poor imitation of Classic Sonic, and that instead the audiences that like Classic Sonic gameplay and the audiences that like Boost Sonic gameplay are not largely the same audience, but separate audiences with some overlap. I think the problem is not that they're trying to cater for 10% of the audience as you believe (or as you would put it, an "unvetted claim"), but that they're trying to cater for 100% of audiences of both styles, and missing the mark for both. They changed the Classic style to the Adventure style when they went 3D, and have only just retried Classic with Mania. Does that mean I can claim that Classic didn't work and that's why they changed it? They've brought the gimmick back because it sold well.
People don't seem to refer to it much nowadays (instead going for the aforementioned Metacritic or the more recent OpenCritic) but GameRankings does have aggregate scores for the original Genesis games; unfortunately, the amount of reviews counted for games released in that generation rarely crack two digits. With that said, Sonic 3 stands at 89.00% (5 reviews) and Sonic & Knuckles stands at 88.13% (4 reviews). For those curious about the older titles, Sonic 1 is at 86% (9 reviews) and Sonic 2 is 88.44% (8 reviews). Sonic CD is at a perfect 100%, but only because only one 10/10 review is counted (lol). (With that said, Taxman's iOS release is within the threshold, at 88.57% at 7 reviews). For comparison's sake, the most widely-reviewed versions of both episodes of Sonic 4 stand at 73.23% (Episode I for PS3, 35 reviews) and 61.32% (Episode II for 360, 25 reviews). The best-reviewed versions of both episodes were marginally/moderately better, with 75.42% (12 reviews) for Epi. I on the Wii and 73.57% (7 reviews) for Epi. II on the iOS. Needless to say, the median for the aggregate scores for all versions of Episode I is the low 70s for Epi. I and the low 60s for Epi. II; while the aggregate scores for the original scores for the Genesis games were all consistently within the high 80s (not counting Sonic CD).
Gonna agree with the "Boost should become a racing game" folks. Boost levels don't take long to complete, but imagine if they were all given multiple laps. That alone would multiply the game's length by a factor of at least 2 (in my preferred case, at least 3). I've always actually felt that the Boost gameplay was reminiscent of the Riders gameplay. You're constantly moving forward and you have a boost. You never really turn back if you miss something, and being slowed down is a definite punishment. With that comparison in mind, it's not much of a leap to imagine playing Unleashed or Generations levels with multiple laps. And from there, as others have already said, adding in multiple characters and multiplayer would be a no-brainer and instantly increase the scope. Another important factor is customization. I haven't played Riders in ages, but I'm pretty sure you could choose the extreme gear you were using, which would alter how your character functioned, ever so slightly, during the race. Generations seems to adopt a similar philosophy to its "racing" gameplay, by letting you customize Sonic with various abilities. Expanding on this, even just a little bit, would add a great degree of depth to the game. The biggest problem with those sections for me has always been how Sonic handles at slower speeds in Unleashed/Colors/Generations. I can't quite put my finger on the right word to describe it, but it just feels incredibly awkward and unnatural trying to land really basic platforming challenges.
His forward acceleration is a lot higher than his turn radius' so it makes Sonic feel extremely stiff. His turn radius itself is extremely wide as well and it makes the controls feel unwieldy at low speed. It's frustrating because the tools that the boost games give you for high-speed maneuvers makes Sonic control like a dream at max high speeds compared to the Adventure games (where if you even dared move the control stick from the forward position Sonic would careen off into what felt like no less than a 45-degree angle from the trajectory he was on) but the trade-off is Sonic Adventure 1 and 2 have a ton of precision when it comes to low-speed maneuvers (if you take the controls themselves on their own, not accounting for camera weirdness). If Sonic Team could balance the emphasis somewhere in the middle, they could hit something pretty ideal. Sonic Utopia lets you get up to some pretty impressive speeds at very little cost to overall control, I really don't see why the Boost games (and actually, Lost World too, Sonic's handling is just as hokey at low-speeds) can't be balanced in a similar way. Except for that probably goes against Sonic Team's overall philosophy with Boost Level design, which is a shame because Modern Seaside Hill in Generations shows just how well classic design philosophy can translate to 3D boost mechanics.
My basic thoughts on the current discussion got lost and (I think) missed as the last post on a page a few days ago when we were still talking about the music, so here it is: I might be one of the biggest fans of boost here, and I'm perfectly happy to see it continue. I think the way that Sonic handled in Generations was just about perfect. It works well for both high speed sections and platforming, and is adaptable to stages set in either style. Don't turn it into a racing game or nerf it, just give me more of it, and I'll be satisfied.
I'm upset with them choosing to keep toying with the boost, not because I dislike it or because it's bad. I actually enjoy the boost games, I think they can be really fun and exciting to play. And I really like the feeling of being able to do perfect runs. But there are so many tiny things that bug the hell out of me, and on top of that, the game just gets really dull once all the smoke and mirrors drift away. To me there's very little reason to go back to Unleashed or Generations because all you can hope to do is get slightly better times or scores. I'd be more interested in that if it required more personal finesse rather than clairvoyance. The biggest issue to me is that they haven't done anything interesting with it, and I honestly believe it's because you cannot do anything to improve the boost without drastically changing things. I don't see this being the long term for the core series. It doesn't seem sustainable or interesting enough to warrant full attention from Sonic Team and Sega. I'd also argue this should be a sub series if anything. In fact I think this would be a far better replacement for the storybook series Sonic had. The concept behind those games were really stupid, but more-so in gameplay. I don't think anyone denies that those games were a visual treat. Imagine whizzing past fairy tale landscapes with the boost games trademark speed, no longer being confined to the weird on rails, motion control gameplay of the storybook titles. Those games also had a hefty amount of customization and smaller missions that slightly tweak the stage layout much like Unleashed and Generations. Add in some additional characters who are close enough to Sonic to fit the style like in Black Knight, and maybe even some multiplayer, and I can see the boost holding it's own very well. Sonic Team has always consistently done well with graphics and music, and those are the two elements that shine with the storybook games. I think the boost gameplay should be preserved, if nothing else because it's become an obvious staple at this point. But I don't see it being the direction for the franchise in the future.
Just watched that Green Hill vid for the first time. Wow. The forced synth, that drum sound, first thing that comes to mind is "They pulled this in Sonic 4 and it got hated on... now they're going back to it?" Then an actual nod to Splash Hill. Why am I looking at Sega feeling like they got their feelings hurt and are trying to damage control it a little. Sonic 4 was ok right guys? Look here's some music, enjoy it! It deliberately celebrates Sonic 4! Wtf Sega. Sonic 4 got the hate, just suck it up and move on. Wtf with not one but several references to it straight up; first video we get. Stop reminding us about Sonic 4 arrrrgh! Then the repeated content. Ok that alone is whatever. It's shoddy to be honest but re-using stuff keep costs do-- whatever. But they use them as warning crosses, above death pits. Explicit markers for death pits. Where did that have to become a thing? Oh yes, Sonic 4. So the first piece of content that jumps out to us as re-used material just happens to be another reminder of another thing Sonic 4 did badly. So for me, the annoying instruments in their own right, coupled with reminders of Sonic 4, are an immediate deal breaker. Unless the classic portion actually plays true.... Yeah that's going to happen.
Very sorry if I'm saying this out of nowhere, or this has been talked about previously. Just a lil' thing I noticed: in that Classic Sonic Green Hills footage, at the end there.. the end-goal post uses "Classic Robotnik" still. It's possible that it's just re-using the Generations asset.. but since we're getting Green Hills Zone again and all, I dunno. Might there be a story reason for "Classic Robotnik" to be on end-goal post? WHO KNOWS?!
I remember how hyped I was when Green Hill Zone was a secret level in Sonic Adventure 2 :v: Times change :v:
In 1991, you were supposed to like Sonic for being an exciting and new series that was trying out fresh ideas. In 2001, you were supposed to like Sonic for developing as a series that was constantly evolving. In 2017, you're supposed to like Sonic only for what it used to be in 1991.
I do feel bad that Green Hill has lost its beloved status though, it's fucking despised now by fans. Back when Adventure 2 came out it was such a shock and cool thing to see Green Hill Zone in 3D.
Back when SA2 came out, it was a cool little reward for people who put in crazy effort to get all the emblems. Now, it's the first level, front and center, for the third and fourth times in series history, between Forces and Mania. I don't know that it's actually despised in and of itself, but the overuse of it certainly is. As well, it comes across as desperate to do this in Forces when Mania is the only one that's meant to be a celebration of series history; in Forces it seems out of place at best. It's possible they'll have a good story justification for that, though, we'll see. Personally, I'm less annoyed with the blatant attempt at nostalgia pandering and more with the fact that they've shown themselves unwilling to revisit Emerald Hill Zone or Angel Island Zone in the same way, or hell, even other Sonic 1 zones.
Star Light deserves a revisit. And its theme would be glorious on modern instruments especially if it was orchestrated Planet Wisp-style. That'd be my choice for a Sonic 1 revisit. And if that video had shown any Sonic 1 zone besides GHZ I think we all wouldn't mind that it was there. Even if it was just another nostalgia pander at least it would be something DIFFERENT.
What annoys me is that not only do the physics look bad (similar to classic Sonic in Gens), but also how uninteresting GH looks in Forces. It's appearance in Gens was justified because of the 20th anniversary and to Sonic Team's credit it's a memorable stage with some creative level design. Whereas the stage layout in Forces looks worse than Gens, Mania and Sonic 1. The only thing of interest is the sand in the background which doesn't keep my attention for long. In years to come will fans still be talking about GH in Forces because it was so popular? I seriously doubt it. I just hope something dramatic happens at the end of the stage, like maybe Eggman bombs it out of existence? Just something to make it memorable, to justify it's inclusion over blatant nostalgia pandering.
