I dumped some prototypes

Can you get the Johnny Mnemonic proto running and post about what's on it? I remember watching a video review on the final version for PC on this one site, and it looked pretty terrible, yet entertaining. I'm not sure what you could exactly compare to if you didn't have the final version, though.

 

Those discs look like they've gone through quite a lot of hands. Which is probably true.

Great job, Glisp.

 

Hey, I'm not bothered by that. Just commenting how scratched and used those discs look. :v:

Would you be willing to disclose the amount paid for the discs? Just curious.

 

Glisp dumped 6 prototypes. That's as many as six ones. And that's terrible.

 

Awesome stuff.

It would be even better if 1:1 dumps of them could be made, for preservation.

 

No. Redump is the troll tier of game dumping. And their 1:1 ripping method will become worthless pretty soon.

If you rip these games properly with cdrwin into bin/cue, I'll host it/torrent it anywhere you want. PM me if you've no clue what this means. And for gods sake, keep away from the viral bullshit of redump.org.



edit: Virtua Fighter Remix is identical to the USA final version. You probably ended up with a sampler they sent for gaming mags (they often sent retail versions).

 

If their images can be turned back into a 100% identical copy of the original, you'd think they're doing something right... Could you please elaborate so we'll know why to stay away from their dumping methods?


I'm just curious, as I first heard of that site last month, and it seemed like a good project to me.

 

Surely you'd be left with a more accurate rip if you repeated a rip until you got two identical copies, rather than all the faffing about redump does?

 

Personally I go for 3 minimum. Especially if I have to rerip numerous times. Then crosscheck the audio with EAC, just in case (though this isn't necessary on my drive after 3+ crc matches, I do it anyway because I like sticking to some kind of quality standard).

You can't burn back 100% identical copies as no burner app supports mixed mode data + audio offset correction.

For Redump, it's hard to explain without 1. it sounding like a rant and 2. their hyperactive OCD admins jumping in two posts later to debunk me on a per-sentence basis.

The gist of it is that they use mostly the same method as Toseciso, except that they take an EAC bug into account, and pepper it with a looooot of bullshit. And they accept and publish single entries, which means that much of their database is unverified and possibly junk. There are some more serious controversies and rumors, but I won't go into that.

Personally I mostly hate their extremely disrespectful smug attitude, nearly nonsensical but at the very least impractical organization (a redump rip has every track in BIN - even audio!, the data track compressed with ECM then 7z, and audio in APE), and their general shortsightedness. Most of those could be fixed by a change in administration, since their concept itself is good, the place is just run by idiots.



Either way, it doesn't matter, as their ripping method will be practically obsolete once toseciso updates. So if you want to jump into 1:1 copies, you should be patient for a little while. Until then, cdrwin bincue, when properly prepared, is perfectly suitable for Sega CD and Saturn games.

edit: oh yeah, and if you can't get cdrwin working, try Imgburn, as long as you don't have multiple data tracks it should work fine. But, for fucks sake, do not rip bincue with Alcohol.

 

After reading this, I'm still wondering what does the "Tosec method" do that Redump's doesn't... What's that EAC bug about, and how will Tosec get better images because of this?

 

Toseciso method right now is data track in 2048 or 2352 (depends on system), and audio ripped by secure EAC with offset correction.
The bug is that EAC 0.99 does not read a few bytes from the end of the last audio track. EAC 0.95 did rip it, but that version missed off some data from the beginning. Incorrect application of offset correction, so I heard.

Redump has that last few bytes included, while Tosec does not (by the time the bug became known, there were already hundreds of dumps). But, Redump has very bad to zero control over what gets added to their database. Anything with only 1 dumper is liable to be a bad rip, it has happened before. Even worse, discs with single dumps are public, so anybody can fake crcs for a second dump with relative ease. Possibly even by using rips by other groups (they have tools to calculate the missing data, so I've been told by their admins). To see how much of a problem this is, check their statistics - 2/3 of their playstation database has only one dumper.
Versus this, toseciso has all data about single dumps hidden, including the dumper. CRCs are only visible once there are at least two independent dumps. Basically the quality control is very strict.

The "missing data" can be less then a kilobyte in most cases. Apparently it's a big enough problem that they pick it up every single fucking time someone says "tosec" on their irc/forums. Or anywhere else, to anybody willing to listen. It IS a problem, I don't deny that, but they blow it completely out of proportion.

However, the problem will be fixed once toseciso gets updated.

 

Damn, that renders Redump's verified rips better than all of Tosec's until their next update. What are they waiting for?

It's not being blown out of proportion, when you think that making 1:1 copies is the purpose of these projects, and there's a flaw in Tosec's proccess that makes all their "verified" dumps not 1:1. =\

 

The "missing" data is incredibly small, does not affect every game, it is located at the end of the very last audio track, it is usually filled with zeros, and it cannot be ripped with all cd drives. (you need to overread into to leadout, which many drives can't do)

It's blown out of proportion by the redump admins who literally talk about this as if the world was coming to an end. In reality we are talking about, in the most extreme case that I could find, 49 miliseconds of audio. It requires special hardware to rip, and in many cases it's filled with silence (so it would be like 8 kilobytes of zeros!). In contrast, the current Toseciso standard already gives you 1:1 rips over *any* cd drive.

And Redump is not 1:1 either. They calculate a "factory write offset" by checking for random data in the pregap of the first audio track, and calculate it into their offset correction. So whatever data there was in the pregap is lost. Go figure...
They calculate this because if a game has multiple pressings, with different "factory write offsets" (but otherwise identical audio), they will all get the same crcs, and will be presented in one entry. Even if technically all the discs have different data on them. So if a game had 9 different pressings, it will be listed at Toseciso as 9 different discs, while only 1 at Redump.

Toseciso has a consistent "flaw" (as all games are dumped by the same method), that is also a necessity.
Redump uses numerous different methods, some less effective than others, so there's no telling if a game is "properly" dumped even with 2+ dumpers (if 3 dumpers use one method to the same results, then a 4th one with a plextor drive checks subcodes and finds a major difference - they update the information, instead of finding more reference to clear up the issue). So Redump is more like a "right now we think these are the correct rips" kind of database... which means that any single one of their games can be bad!



... Do note that the "missing" data that may cause something to be a "bad dump" -for both in the cases of Toseciso and Redump- is microscopical. It is impossible to perceive, affects nothing, and way, way, way too much thought is put into it. And you couldn't make 1:1 rips even if you'd take everything into factor, since there are still low-level Subcode type of data to archive, eventually dwelling into the realm of laboratory style equipment being necessary!

This is why I keep saying (and other sensible people keep saying it as well): use CDRWin bin/cue. For fucks sake...

 

I would say you should use CDRWIN BIN/CUE on the discs, as well as ripping the audio to wave (not MP3) with ExactAudioCopy. That covers all your bases.

I have one question though. Would CloneCD provide any benefits over BIN/CUE?