How would you remake Sonic Adventure for today?

...What was that saying about "those who forget about history" again? It's right on the tip of my tongue...

None of those things having existed before holds the franchise back now. Come on.

And for the record, I do dislike Big as a character, I just didn't see any point in bringing it up.

 

If you dislike big, that's cool. I just get flustered when people discredit him for his gameplay.

Also, there's a difference between forgetting the past and repeating it, and putting the past behind you and learning from mistakes so you don't do the same bad thing twice. Instead, most people in the fanbase go with option 3. Never forget the bad things and never move on, trying to excuse it all with memes and references to "the good ol' days".

 

Sonic Adventure's biggest problems are technical. I, as a fan of the game, want to see that same game be given new life by rebuilding the game from the ground up and fixing those problems, along with some adjustments and additions here and there. I'll never understand why somebody would want to remake SA1 just to make it a completely different game from a conceptual level. SA1 is a good game held back by technical flaws and a few poor design choices. I'd like to play a version of the game where those things are fixed, so that I can enjoy the game without it being held back by a lot of the constraints they dealt with back in 1998. Playing a version of Sonic Adventure that is actually polished, so that the ambition behind the original game can be better realized. That's what I want out of a remake.

 

To elucidate on why I favor the "reimagining" angle to the "remake" angle (and @LucasMadword's thoughts on the different approaches last page were great!), and to kind of respond to you guys who feel that I suggested what I did out of spite for the Adventure games...

I felt like Sonic Adventure was the best game I'd ever played back when I first played it. Just running Sonic up that slope in Emerald Coast in 3D, feeling the momentum and speed, was one of the most incredible things I'd ever seen. It was my only Dreamcast game for months, and I played it so much that I've got it down to muscle memory to this day. While I can take a more objective stance on how it's stood the test of time and how it looks in a modern context, I never felt like the game was held back by constraints, because it didn't seem like it HAD any constraints in 1999. In other words, I know logically the game is hamstrung by technical limitations and a rushed development cycle, but when I play it, it's still easy enough for me to set all that aside and view it through the same eyes I did when I was 11.

That's one of the biggest reasons a point-for-point remake doesn't appeal to me so much. The original Sonic Adventure is still there, and with the Dreamcast conversion mod on PC, it's even better than I remember it. And while I'm sure you could remake it, modernize it, and make it appeal more to modern audiences, I just don't think that shoring up the technical issues is going to make all that much difference to me, as someone who's enjoyed the Dreamcast classic for decades. A reimagining of some kind stands to be MUCH more interesting, as something that could stand on its own alongside and in contrast to the original.

 

I don't think it really needs that much of a reimagining to be beloved or capture the magic it did when you were a kid. That's giving too little credit to how much fun 11 year old you had, and you're leaning too hard into your own insight from 20 plus years of muscle memory and formed thoughts. I mean, hell, I'm right with you there.

Plus, we act like a faithful remake with minor improvements wouldn't be a success, but the Crash and Spyro trilogies were remade to uproaring applause and adoration. Sonic Adventure is still beloved in the public eye even despite the smarmy critic and the especially jaded fan. I don't think a remake should waste the potential to improve things, for sure, but I don't think sticking to most of it's structure would be something people would be against at all.

 

Um... I also enjoy the game as it is. That's why the idea of a remake appeals to me. I want to have the ability to play the game with all those technical problems resolved and improved, alongside the original. I just don't understand a desire to make an entirely different kind of game and calling it a remake of Adventure for some reason.

 

It would need to be a new game, in the same way that Metroid: Samus Returns and Final Fantasy VII Remake are new games. (And in those cases, the gameplay of the original Metroid II: Return of Samus and Final Fantasy VII holds up better than the original Sonic Adventure.)

Sonic's controls and the game physics are outdated. The level design has strong geography and set pieces, but is low on player engagement and replay value.

The art direction, world, set pieces, music, plot, and characters are all great.

Taking the old game and polishing it wouldn't be enough. Instead, it would require more of a "What if Sonic Adventure were made today?" approach.

There are many things that would need to be considered.

Scope

I dislike the term "AAA". But Sonic is a AAA IP that hasn't had a AAA game in decades. Sonic Adventure was a big and ambitious game when it first came out, but is small and primitive by today's standards. Sonic's 10 Action Stages, the core of the game, add up to about 40 minutes of gameplay. They could get away with that in 1998, with their first attempt at a 3D Sonic game, a tight deadline to meet the Dreamcast launch window, and being able to dazzle people with all the new features, high speed and mind blowing graphics. Today it would be unacceptable.

Sonic's campaign needs to be a full and substantial experience in and of itself.

The other characters also need to have more substantial gameplay. Gamma's first level takes about 30 seconds. Amy only has 3 levels. Tails' levels are a fraction of the size of Sonic's already short levels. This is all unacceptable.

To keep all of Sonic Adventure's different gameplay styles, while also fully realising all of them, would be a huge undertaking. It would need to be a AAA game, with a AAA budget and a long development period, otherwise it wouldn't work.

Sonic's controls / game physics

I agree with much of this.

At the time of Sonic Adventure, the idea was to take the Sonic of the Mega Drive games and make him function in 3D. In the decades since then, that base has evolved in a very different direction, with additions like boost, drift, rail grind, side-step, slide and stomp, switching between 3D and 2D and the removal of rolling/spin dash. Today's Sonic doesn't control like a platform game character in 3D. Walking is stiff and awkward. Running is a cross between controlling a platform game character and a racecar, befitting the more racetrack-like level design.

I like Sonic Generations a lot (more than both Adventure games) but it's a different type of game entirely. It's not what Sonic Adventure was, or what a remake should be. It would require a back to basics approach, but by the standards of the 2020s, not 1998. The Sonic of the Mega Drive games, adapted into 3D. He needs to control like a platform game character. He needs to control equally as well at high speed and low speed. Some form of drifting mechanic might be worth keeping, as running through corkscrews and such was so awkward in the original game (the latter part of Windy Valley), but the better solution might be to design those areas to better suit Sonic's movement.

Sonic's move set needs to be simple.

*Spin Jump
**Homing Attack?
*Rolling
*Spin Dash
*Light Speed Dash

SPIN JUMP / HOMING ATTACK

The standard spin jump attack has been made near useless over the years, with the homing attack becoming the standard form of attack. This is not good. The homing attack was a concession, a compromise, a crutch. In the classic Sonic games you could smash through enemies while maintaining your momentum. You could bounce off of enemies for greater height - just like in Mario, you bounce higher if you keep the jump button held down. This is all lacking in the 3D games, the standard spin jump has been neutered. The homing attack takes autonomy away from the player and negates all momentum. It's too stop/start, too mechanical.

Mario can jump and bounce off of Goombas in 3D, without ever having needed a homing attack. Why can't Sonic jump and bounce off of Badniks in 3D?

It's not going to be easy, since Sonic is faster than Mario. But Sonic's jump can also destroy enemies from the side and below, so his jump attack has always had more leeway than Mario's. It's something that would need to be experimented with, with a lot of trial and error. I'm not even saying they need to completely get rid of the homing attack, if it turns out that they're better off keeping it. But if the homing attack is retained, it needs to not be completely at the expense of the standard spin jump. In 1998 the homing attack was a work-around, and that work-around has been the standard ever since, going completely unchallenged. Over 22 years later, they need to see if they can make Sonic work in 3D without that work-around. (Besides, Tails and Knuckles don't have a homing attack. They need to be just as fun and functional to play as Sonic.)

To help accommodate this, the Badniks need to be bigger targets. Sonic Adventure's were too small. In every 3D game since SA1, the enemies have been bigger. Just as Goombas are bigger in the 3D Mario games than the 2D Mario games.

If the homing attack is kept, then the "lock-on target" system of the recent games is good, letting the player know where the homing attack will send them. The graphic and sound needs to be changed to something less robotic and more Sonicy though. The air-dash isn't needed, if Sonic isn't close enough to homing attack an enemy, then the double jump should do nothing.

ROLLING / SPIN DASH

Another key feature of Sonic that's been lost over the years. Sonic is a hedgehog. He's a character who rolls into a ball. When he's rolled into a ball he can defeat enemies and break items boxes, walls etc. Ball-Sonic is faster downhill, but slower uphill, unless he has enough momentum to carry him. As Sid said, Super Mario Odyssey casually gave this to Mario as a completely throwaway move, and it felt great. Why has Sega not tried to do this with Sonic since SA1?

In SA1, the roll was undermined and compromised by the spammable spin dash. This should not be an option. It's not how Sonic worked in the classic games and it's not how Sonic should work in the 3D games.

In the classic games, pressing down would make Sonic crouch when stationary and roll when moving. You spin dash by crouching and pressing the jump button to "rev up". Obviously, presssing "down" isn't an option for a 3D game. But why can't the R-trigger function the exact same way pressing down on the D-pad did? You make Sonic run with the analogue stick, then as you reach a slope you press the R-trigger to make Sonic roll into a ball. To perform a spin dash, Sonic must be standing still first, then you hold the R-trigger to crouch and repeatedly press the jump button to rev up, then you release the R-trigger. It would have the exact same functionality as the classic games, and without the awkwardness of the player having to press two face buttons at the same time.

This is the number one thing that's needed to make 3D Sonic games feel more like Sonic, and breath new life into the series. The level design and physics would need to take full advantage of this feature, with slopes and ramps and half pipes and quarter pipes.

LIGHT SPEED DASH

I don't particularly care for Light Speed Dash, but it was part of the original Sonic Adventure. It should work like it did in Sonic Generations, assigned to its own button without any charge up, but as Sid said, the ring trails designed specifically for it should have a work-around so they're not broken by the Magnetic Shield.

Levels

In Sonic Adventure, Sonic has 10 levels, most of which can be beaten in under 3 minutes (without using any advanced speed running techniques). This won't fly today.

Each level needs to have 2 Acts. The levels should get progressively bigger/longer as the game progresses. Emerald Coast Act 1 should take around 2.5 minutes to complete. Final Egg Act 2 should take around 7 or 8 minutes.

Speed Highway Act 1 should be the night time section, Act 2 should be the ground level "at dawn" section. Ice Cap Act 1 should be mostly set in the cave, Act 2 should be the mountain exterior with the cabin village, hot air balloons and the snowboarding section. And so on.

Casinopolis should be a proper level. The two pinball tables should be mini-games accessed in the Adventure Field (and they should play like proper pinball, like Sonic Generations' Casino Night pinball table, not the weird floaty mechanics of SA1). Hot Shelter should be accessible to Sonic as an optional secret level, accessed by finding a way to open the door in the Adventure Field. Sand Hill should be expanded into a full level and should also be an optional secret level.

There could also be more bosses. Sonic Adventure had a cool redesigned Mecha Sonic, but did nothing with it. You should have to fight Mecha Sonic before entering Final Egg.

Level design should largely be new and expanded, but keeping all the key landmarks, set pieces, enemies and gimmicks of the original. (While also not being afraid to add new ones, as with Sonic Mania and Sonic Generations.) One of the most memorable parts of the Lost World level was running from the boulder Indiana Jones style, but in terms of actual gameplay it was a whole lot of nothing, and over in about 12 seconds. This is the kind of thing that needs to be expanded and improved upon, giving the player more to engage with.

Sonic Adventure was very good about giving its levels interesting geography - varied shapes, landmarks, good use of 3D instead of just moving in a straight line. But it was fairly low on engagement. Much of the game felt like taking the scenic route, with easy to avoid obstacles and non-entity enemies that only proved a nuisance when the camera did a poor job of showing where they were. The more interesting, platformery elements, like Lost World's snake room and gravity pads, were hampered by an unhelpful camera and loose controls.

Sonic Adventure 2's geography was less interesting, but it really built upon the GAME elements of Sonic. Enemies and obstacles were bigger, better placed and more threatening - you had more reason to engage with them rather than run past them. The ranking/scoring system was brilliantly balanced between time, rings and score, with the game offering point opportunities for almost every player action, from defeating and chaining enemies to jumping ramps and swinging from poles at the right moment - the more precise the timing, the higher the score. Every Sonic game since has had a ranking and scoring system, but none have been as finely tuned as SA2's.

That scoring system needs to be applied to levels that are denser with hazards, enemies and interactive stage gimmicks. The levels and stage gimmicks need to give the player autonomy whenever possible, with very few scripted events. Springs shouldn't just bounce Sonic in a pre-determined direction, you should have control of Sonic's trajectory just like in the classic games. As mentioned earlier, in terms of level geography there needs to be an emphasis on slope and ramp physics, with rolling being a key feature of how Sonic plays.

There needs to be more branching paths, more high routes and low routes that take risk/reward into consideration. The more dangerous routes should be faster, or offer more point scoring opportunities than the safer routes. The high routes should require more precision, or you'll fall back down to the lower route. This was all standard stuff in the classic Sonic games, but there wasn't too much of it in Sonic Adventure. There was the odd shortcut here and there, but nothing as substantial as, for example, Aquatuic Ruin Zone's above water route and underwater route.

Replay value

Alternate routes and a Sonic Adventure 2 style ranking system already go a long way to adding replay value. There should also be 5 Red Star Rings in each Act. This has become a series standard in recent games, and is a good idea, encouraging exploration and letting the player know that they haven't seen/done everything in a level yet.

SA2 and Sonic Rush Adventure style missions (also with a best time/high score system in place) are another easy way of adding replay value. "Get 100 Rings" is a classic example - everything in the level is the exact same, Sonic's controls are the exact same, but changing the objective encourages the player to think differently as they play, to take different routes, get better at avoiding damage. "Race Metal Sonic" could be another mission - similar to a time attack, but Metal Sonic will have some tricks up his sleeve like in Sonic CD.

2 Player Versus needs to return. This was a big selling point of Sonic Adventure 2: Battle. There should be the standard "reach the goal first" race like in SA2, but also a Sonic 2 style option, that takes rings, items, enemies defeated etc. into consideration. Like SA2, this is an opportunity to use characters who aren't in the story, but have similar abilities. Versus mode for Sonic style levels would have Sonic, Shadow, Metal Sonic and Blaze as selectable characters. Gamma's 2 Player Versus would have Beta, Delta, Epsilon and Zeta. And so on.

Adventure Fields

The Adventure Fields should have a bit more going on. The "take the ice stone to the Ice Cap door" style """puzzles""" should either be replaced with something more substantial, or removed entirely. There should be more hidden Chao Eggs, integrating all the special Chao types introduced after SA1. Station Square should have a gallery that unlocks more promo and concept art as you collect emblems. There should be shops where you can exchange Red Star Rings for character skins/clothing (e.g. SA2 shoes, Sonic Riders outfit, Sonic Boom outfit, the SA2 Versus outfits).

Rings and Animals should be "banked" every time you complete a level, without the 10 animal limit. The animals released from a capsule at the end of a stage should all count as collected. The Chao Garden should let the player choose which animals they want to take from this bank to give to Chao. This way there's less grinding, less waste, and the player isn't penalised for collecting 11+ animals in a stage. (The SA2 exclusive animals should also be in the game, in order for this to be the definitive version of Chao Garden, with no missing content.) As with SA2, Rings should be currency for Chao related items. The player should be able to decorate and customise their Chao Gardens, like a mini Animal Crossing.

Story

The plot is fine, but will need some adjustments to incorporate additional levels for every character who isn't Sonic. The script will need a lot of polishing. Obviously the whole thing will need re-recording. All story scenes should be individually scored - no more blasting 8 seconds of a character's theme song then awkwardly cutting off.

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And this is all without really touching upon Tails, Knuckles, Amy, Gamma and Big. Their campaigns would all need significant adjustments too. But Sonic needs to be the focus of any Sonic Adventure remake. Many of the improvements made to Sonic's game will automatically carry over the other characters. If Sonic controls better, then so does Tails. If Sonic has bigger levels to explore, then so does Knuckles.

It can't be emphasised enough how massive an undertaking it would be to rework Sonic Adventure to meet the standards of today. It was well received at release, but it's very much a game of its time and original context. As reviews of the GameCube port showed, it couldn't even meet the standards and expectations of a 2003 audience.

 

Are you sure? Because that's another reason I'd be awfully cautious of an Adventure remake if I were Sega. Every time the Adventure games have been made more accessible, from the GCN ports in the early 2000s to the XBLA and PSN ports 10 years later, it's prompted a fresh round of derision for them, YouTube videos and articles mocking them, and general damage to their legacy, as people who haven't played them in years re-evaluate them, and people who've never played them before give them a try. I know those who love them REALLY love them, but I don't think they have the accessibility or the pre-built audience that would allow them to just be polished up a bit the way Crash and Spyro were, and expect the result to be any different in 2020 than it was before.

Ah, yeah, @Pengi just summed it up perfectly as I was writing this.

That's pretty much the size of it. And now, he's given me some reading to do... :D

EDIT: Yup, Pengi's ideas on how to modernize the game sound fantastic, and I want to subscribe to his newsletter. Thank you for taking the time to write all that out. If that game was real, I think it'd have a real shot to match the way it felt to play the original felt way back then.

More than anything, I agree that if Sonic Team was going to try to recapture the magic of Sonic Adventure without turning it into something it wasn't, they'd have to embody the ambitious spirit of the Sega that released the Dreamcast. It absolutely HAS to be a AAA game with a AAA budget and all the development time it needs.

 

I... I just... can't be bothered to read that much text o-o

 

Wasn't much of the criticism of Sonic Adventure at any given point the same stuff we've been over already though? Most derision the game gets nowadays (or even in 2003) is people complaining about how glitchy it is, the dated visuals, how much repetition the hubs put you through, how shoddy the cutscenes are and how the game forces you to play as other characters, mostly honing on Big's fishing gameplay.

A remake of the game would undoubtedly iron out it's bugginess and have modern standards for presentation and visuals, give more things to do in both the adventure and action stages, and would definitely give room to streamline hub progression and make some changes to some of the more undesirable gameplay styles. You can do all of that without having to change the entire thing wholesale, you know.

I feel like Sonic fans have really given in to the lens that Sonic Adventure is an undesirable, bad game that people don't want to play, and that only becomes more apparent the more people in here talk about it. Like we can't be allowed to enjoy it for what it is without accepting that it is only good to ourselves and our standards are lower, or something. It doesn't make any sense. Because if it really weren't, then why are we even entertaining the idea? Why not just ask them to make new things, and stop pressing the thought? What's the point?

 

I don't think it's a perfect game at all, I can very much see it's flaws.

I just think a lot of it's flaws are overblown by fans who are used to seeing the game through a more negative lens, and feel like the game needs a total reworking just to be considered viable. Mario 64 is also dated, yes, and not very many stages to go off of in comparison to a modern title, but I can't think of very much I would change about it if it got a remake; other than maybe a few more levels and features (if they felt like it, it's not even needed) and some slight polish to it's mechanics. Same business here.

And just because Final Fantasy 7 got a huge reimagining doesn't mean it needed it, either. The game was just fine as it were, and a remake that updated all of it's visuals and presentation to a modern standard but with the same gameplay would've been just fine, but the FF7 Remake takes it's own unique turn just because the team behind it was inspired enough to do such. It wasn't because the game was inherently flawed or anything.

 

Literally nobody said that the graphics are the only thing that needs updating.

 

I literally gave a decent amount of things I would change in a remake in an earlier post, I never once said I'd keep everything the same lol.

I just don't think changing everything is necessary. That's not the same thing as wanting to change nothing. Am I biased for thinking Sonic Adventure could've done some things right?

 

There's clearly a very fine line to walk here. It's become apparent (to me at least) that a remake of adventure would require an extremely delicate balance of modern reimagining and preserving the spirit of the original. How would anyone go about that? I have no idea

 

I think it does also depend on *why* you want it remade. Nobody is necessarily saying SA1 is a bad game, it's just definitely a product of it's time. Comparing a hypothetical Mario 64 remake to a SA1 remake, it makes no sense to compare the two, as SA1 is a much more varied game in terms of style.

Mario 64 at it's core is a Mario control scheme, running around different maps. That's it. There's a few variations (such as the wings powerup), but overall, it's Mario. If you had to overhaul Mario 64, there's not much to overhaul. Look at the DS "remake", all it had to do was add in a few other playable characters (which all control fairly similar to Mario), overhaul the graphics, and you have an almost definitive version (minus the whole lack of analogue stick functionality). For Mario 64, it comes down to solidifying a control scheme, and then using the maps as a template. Given the fairly basic story, the lack of gameplay variations, the game can be considered fairly basic to "reimagine".

Compare this to Sonic Adventure. As stated by Pengi (sorry for not quoting you directly, SonicRetro loads really bloody slow on my computer, can't be bothered to try and use the quote feature to your post lol), the campaigns are not full and substantial experiences. Sonic's playthrough is 40 minutes, with each other character having even less focus. If we're comparing that to Mario 64, it's about 4+ hours. So, try to remake all 6 gameplay styles, you're still going to be left with little content per character, and focus is then taking away from creating a substantial core experience. If you are "reimagining" the game, that's 6 gameplay styles, plus 6 storylines, each with cutscenes. It's not just a simple job to reimagine it.

As soon as you give it the "remake" treatment, whether you call it a remake or a reimagining, the expectation is that you've improved the game to rerelease it. If it's only slight changes here and there, I think people wouldn't take to kind to it. The game doesn't feel like a 2020 game, because it isn't. I find it interesting because the ambition of Sonic Adventure is it's major downfall in rereleasing it.

Mario 64 and Crash both are pretty simple when it comes to games, they're not that overcomplicated, and mainly focused on a basic single control scheme, that they could focus on designing levels around. SA1, on the other hand, is fairly complicated, which makes it beloved, but also makes it a pain to completely remake it. SA1 is many different control schemes, that they only had time to design a handful of levels around each. Which, is fine if you enjoy all the gameplay styles... but when you only enjoy maybe two or three of the six gameplay styles, that will sour opinions massively.

 

Any point you were trying to make with that sentence was ultimately meaningless because nobody was arguing against it.

This thread has posts in it that say a remake of SA1 should remove characters from the story and/or completely change the gameplay and progression of the game (or make it a freaking boost game lmao). This is the kind of stuff that I'm disagreeing with. This idea that conceptually from the ground up, Sonic Adventure is too flawed. I don't agree with that. I think the game can be greatly improved without changing everything about it. Some changes and additions to the levels? Sure! Making some new levels? Sure! Improving each character's gameplay mechanics? Sure! etc. I'm simply against the prospect of repurposing the title of Sonic Adventure for a new game that barely resembles Sonic Adventure.

 

The only gameplay style that needs removing is Big's IMO. They can find something else that works better in the context of a Sonic game and meshed better with the other characters' playstyles. I would also speed up Amy's gameplay as it's a bit too slow-paced compared to everyone else besides Big. Other than that, mostly refine the gameplay styles to be better in certain ways. I would personally definitely want to remove randomness from Knuckles' gameplay, as RNG treasure hunting isn't fun IMO- make Knuckles' gameplay more like a collectathon, where things are always in the same spots, it's just about finding them- you can still have replay-ability and variety doing things this way, as proven by many collectathon games that are already out there. The physics need to be less jank in general, that technical issue was always an annoyance in the Adventure games.