Fundamental Flaws of Classic Sonic (Mania Spoilers)

Haha I remember that fucking barrel. UGH. I remember as a kid I could never figure it out so when I did my Knuckles playthrough I was dreading it, but then he didn't have to deal with it. Coincidentally Knuckles was the first character I beat S3K with! =P.

Thank god this game didn't have anything that stupid in it, my word.

Also for what it's worth Sonic Mania has the least amount of crushing hazards in a 2D Classic-era styled Sonic game. Every zone in Sonic 2 following Emerald Hill and prior to Wing Fortress had some sort of hazard that could crush you, 5 of the 6 zones in Sonic 3 and like 2-3 zones in S&K had them, with Mania it's like, even less than that but they're also not even as common as they are in the older games to begin with. Naturally the Sonic game with the most crusher hazards is 1, but that's predictable, Sonic 1 had the most hazards in general.

 

I did watch the video

You can't gauge whether or not he actually knew hitting Eggman into the spikes would do anything, because he just keeps hitting the ball. So the fact that the spikes were there should have made him think about going in the opposite direction to avoid attacking him until he knew what to do. He only ever hits the bumper while Eggman's on the upswing, and Tails passes through the bumper every other time he hits it. Yeah, that was his fault. I don't get what else they could do to convey that other than Eggman making a face or something. Maybe they could have the bumper flash or change color, but He clearly wasn't paying attention to any other minor details, so I don't see why you think doing anything else that subtle would make it easier for him to understand.

 

I don't know , always liked the things that slowed sonic down like the crushing mechanics and stuff that gets In Your way, it's been with sonic since the first game. Mixing up the gameplay is very important. Playing sonic is also about memory and learning from your mistakes. I think the classic games need more challenge, at least we don't start over from the first level after game over. I wouldn't mind if they designed the game so that they forced you to start over from the first zone if you game overed but let you save where you were at if you are still alive. And after the game was beat than you could go back and play the stages you finished.

 

[media]https://youtu.be/YV4W1gqxQS0?t=564[/media]

That boss clearly does not convey when it becomes intangible; its vulnerability conveyance could be significantly improved.

The player can't determine the intangibility with Tails either.
At the start of the fight, Tails could hit the boss bumper immediately after Sonic does, then later, Tails just passes through the boss for no reason while Sonic can still hit the boss.

It's just a game design oversight that can be improved.

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That boss would benefit from showing that it's temporarily invincible and intangible - An animation, flashing white, turning translucent, etc.

Also, the player was actually using the correct technique to damage the boss and the game still gave him a penalty.

In future games, the experience would improved by clearly conveying danger/obstacles/enemy behavior to the player;
When games convey mechanics in a tactful manner, it improves the experience for everybody without hindering or watering down anything for the more experienced players.

 

Up until I was around 15 I still had to beat the barrel into obeying me with Super Sonic. :v:
That's actually something that should be brought up with Sonic 3 Complete maybe? Having like a couple electric light in the shape of arrows to the side that lights up when you're on the barrel and press their corresponding directions.

 

He doesn't just keep hitting the ball. He climbs up the pole, swings directly towards Eggman (the correct thing to do) and is punished with death because Eggman was non-solid and there was nothing to tell him that he was non-solid at the moment.

If you think this is good game design, I never want to play a game designed by you. This is as objective a flaw as objective gets.

 

From my experience, the first thing you'd do is try and hit him the normal way by jumping, and he's basically always non solid on the Robotnik part, apart from his bumper. You'll notice he moves when you hit it. Anyone should learn it fast, I don't think they skipped the tutorial here.

Sure someone might get confused but I don't see how in any way it's bad design. It's how the boss works.

 

No, the bumper is non-solid after being hit, and there's no visual indication of when it becomes solid.

How many times do I have to say this?

 

When in the history of the franchise have Sonic & Co. EVER been allowed to go THROUGH a bumper?

I've only seen it in Sonic Time Twisted and even then it's indicated to the player as it rotaries into the background (goes for normal size to small to normal) where is obvious that the player can run in front of it temporarily. What I just witnessed in that video are bullshit deaths. I have no problem with the second one though. He hits the spikes right before the magnetic platform falls and is crushed. That was just comical shitty timing.

 

Oh so when you say he aimed towards Eggman, you mean the bumper part.

They did attempt to show the player (the mech writhes around after the hit which is his invulnerable phase) but I definitely agree more could be done to show.

 

Actually, I'd argue the writhing just makes it worse. To me it suggests that it's helpless and you should wail on him. I died to this boss more times than any other because I kept assuming something was wrong with the mech's collision box (the fact that hitting Eggman's pod never does anything doesn't help). I love the fight's concept, but this is one of the few valid complaints I've seen in this thread.

I also remember someone mentioning the mini-boss in Oil Ocean doesn't convey the fact that the edges of the arena are unsafe once it turns the valves. I haven't died to this myself, but I probably got lucky. As I mentioned before, I like a bit of trial-and-error, but it does need to be fair. Correct me if I'm wrong, but from what I've read, you get crushed by the spikes there, which seems a bit overboard for something you can't see coming. Again, this isn't something I've checked myself, so just throwing it out there for the sake of discussion.

 

Just realised he doesn't even damage Eggman in that clip Eggman he is still invulnerable after he bumps him... okay, that's kinda unfair, I don't see a reason for that. To the boss' credit, when you actually attack him there is a sound which indicates this invulnerable moment.

Either way - this isnt a 'fundamental' flaw.

 

This thing about the Egg Spider and playing through Titanic Monarch got me thinking about another flaw in classic games. Inconsistent solidity rules. Take the Egg Spider. Normally you'd think Eggman would be solid, since why wouldn't he? But nope, he's not, only the bumper has collision. Titanic Monarch, you have those poles that go along set pieces sometimes. Sometimes they're used for platforms to go up and down and sometimes it's used for whole set pieces to go up and down. For the former, they're solid, for the later, they're not. Blocks that look like they'd be stepping stones in Press Garden you actually go through.

I can't think of as many examples in the other games but I have a feeling those things exist there too.

EDIT: Oh ya how could I forget. The death egg robot in both Mania and Sonic 2 suffer from inconstient collision, as well as the death egg robots fingers in S3&K (sometimes you go through them, sometimes you don't). Also those barriers in Mushroom hill zone (you can walk through them one way but not the other? It just looks weird idk why they just didn't put a gate down to stop you from going back).

 

Yeah for some reason if you hit the boss when he's near the bottom of the screen/in the platform, hitting him into spikes does nothing. Was really damn annoying my first time around.

But yeah, I wouldn't call it a flaw of the classic formula, just a flawed Boss

 

Titanic Monarch amends this solidity rule by drawing usual clear paths with rings and having a lot of automated bumper segments. You never really get lost in that level. My family who are HILARIOUSLY BAD AT THIS GAME got through most of it with a bit of help from my cousin and I, and my cousin is what I'd call average at platformers at best. The game's actually pretty forgiving and doesn't have a lot of unclear moments or unfair things, which is why I think the odd moment stands out a lot. But having seen what you could call newcomers playing this game for a whole afternoon, they had a TON of fun even when they died. That's what good level design does, fwiw.

As for the Spider, easy solution. Keep the bumper yellow when you can't ping him, or do something with the boss that makes it look like he can't be struck again. Small visual cues go a long way. The first death in the Alpharad vid of the Flying Battery ones is IMO independent of intended design and is just a collision/clipping glitch so I don't really count it as a design flaw, just a bug.

 

Just found this from the FB page of all things which led me to the official site. I didn't realize the manual was right there:

http://www.sonicthehedgehog.com/mania/manual/en/index.html?pid=0

It mentions this in the Tips and Hints section of the last page: " Actions games are like sports. If you practice everyday you will improve over time." basically says right there that we need to suck it up and get back on the field when mistakes are made.... Even including bugs I guess.

 

Loads of people complaining about the egg spiders temp invisibility without understanding the design reason behind it. Plenty of people have finished the game now so it's not like it's that hard to understand

Egg Spider's Ghosting is due to how your supposed to play it as it goes though a looped sequence

1. spikes on left, rail on right

2. spikes on right, rail on left

3. Spikes both sides

If the Egg Spider always had collision, then Sonic would have a tough time moving left to right in time to prepare for the next attack. The idea is you hit it, which makes it swing a little a drop, then head for the rail to deliver the big push into the spikes. It's not that hard to figure out. The S3 Barrel was legit more an issue in terms of no easy way to understand, mostly because the elemental shields muddy the water to a degree (well the barrels do move when I bubble bounce them so keep doing that?)

The rest of mania is fairly sound, there's only 2 real potential crush cases, and both are easy with time - I guess the only thing was CPZ crusher could be cheesed easier in 2 - but doing it the old way doesn't work in Mania, it's easier to go with the motion of the ladder steps

The only section where I legit felt the game was a bit unkind was actually lower section Flying Battery Act 2 - there's a section under the ship with the Wacky Workbench electric shockers and as you end that section, you take a spring to run up the underside of the ship, most of the game this mechanic works a dream, but in this one section you legit have to reverse the direction being held to avoid dying. I guess the wind physics mess with it a bit?

 

I could easily land at least two hits on the spider boss and move to the other side in time to grab the rotating pole. But let's assume that what you say is truly the reason behind the decision to make it intangible. In that case, they should have made the spikes pop off once you land a hit.

It's not that big a deal, and you probably won't make the same mistake on a repeat playthrough, but it does stand out in a game with such intuitive design in general.

 

Well mistakes yea, I don't expect a Robotnik's Speed Trap scenario with this game though, I bet they'll patch a lot of these things.

 

I don't understand what this has to do with anything. Nobody is saying the boss is hard to figure out. And personally when I need to switch sides I just... run underneath it while it's in the air? I thought that was what you were supposed to do. Makes a hell of a lot more sense than it magically becoming a fucking ghost.

And putting that aside, even if it was designed in the ass-backwards way of "hit the boss, jump through spooky ghost boss to get to rail, wait a few seconds, hit the boss from the rail" then it's still poor design because there's absolutely nothing to tell you when the spooky ghost boss becomes normal boss again.

Once again, for emphasis because I've said this like five times now:

There is no visual indication that the boss becomes non-solid, and no visual or audio cue to tell you that the boss has become solid again.