There's something about the way you argue that feels incredibly detached yet immeasurably self-sure and persistent. There's not a hint of personal stake or opinion in your posts, only rebuttal. You're an odd one. So far, I think I'm falling into a place with this game where I don't want to see any more of it before launch; I feel like, even from what little's been shown off, there won't be anything Forces has to offer that won't stop being interesting an hour or so after I experience it, so I'd rather save that interest for when I can get my hands on it.
I stated before that coming up with an idea and implementing it within a video game is more complicated than people think. Even if you think that your idea is great, that won't particularly be the case in practice, no matter how ideal the idea may seem. Many of the people that criticize Sonic Team while saying that they should have done this or that instead or focus on an entirely different gameplay never seem to consider this, and so they attribute this to either laziness or incompetence on Sonic Team's part. One of the common criticisms directed towards Sonic Team is that they change the focus of their gameplay too much. However, now, when they are focusing on improving their gameplay style, that is criticized, too. Because of all of these different aspects, "starting from scratch" is not really going to be a guaranteed success and it can even backfire. Sonic Team makes video games not only to try to cater to their fans as well as they can and make a great product, but also to make money. Taking unnecessary risks that can backfire is not a wise option for them.
That is true, taking a risk is not safe by definition. But the games they're putting out aren't exactly setting the world on fire, and the reception is pretty mixed in their own fanbase too. The last time they "started from scratch" they did something different with the same approach of the other games, as stated by Blue Blood a couple of posts earlier. That doesn't exactly count as "starting from scratch" in my opinion.
Cept I never said that. What I said was that Sonic Team keeps spitballing ideas, rather than developing existing ones. And the new ideas they try have decent stuff, but not enough potential to grow. Which is why a newer team should take the reigns, while they work more on the boost Sonic games. And no one is hating that they're sticking with the generations formula. They hate that there are no noticeable improvements. It's literally just Sonic Generations with new graphics. No one is asking Sonic Team to get "better at their job", like everyone quick to assume their intentions says. What we and a lot of others want is a game that improves and expands the concept in tangible ways. If people are fine with more of the same, then that's okay. But don't come at people asking them to be okay with something they aren't, or ask them to accept mediocrity.
If I can touch on the automation thing for a bit, I generally never really had a problem with it in Unleashed, Colors, and Generations because in those games it didn't feel like the dash panels or the scripted launch height stuff was really doing anything that Sonic himself couldn't do, or stealing control from you. I guess you could consider that itself a problem; the fact that there's one too many dash panels in some areas and that there's scripted ramps, when Sonic has a boost and the vanilla physics for him are definitely competent on their own, but it didn't hurt my enjoyment of the games much. The most egregious examples across all of U/C/G for me are the autorun sections with the Big Chaser and Aero Chaser enemies in Unleashed, which definitely visibly slow you down and end up feeling like a drag, and Starlight Carnival 1 in Sonic Colors, where the extent of the 3D sections there is exclusively either quickstepping or literally not interacting with the game at all. But in general, like I said, it's never something that bothered me and because Forces is going back to the 3D boost style gameplay I doubt it'll bother me here either. In Sonic Lost World though, automation is used pretty much exclusively to do things that Sonic can't do, and dash panels almost always take total control away from you. Worst examples there for me are Desert Ruins 3 which speaks for itself, and Frozen Factory 4's final section where if you don't interact with certain dash panels (which is not hard to do, especially if you fall off the upper path) you're definitely not crossing any of those large gaps which is pretty silly IMO. But I digress. + - ("...for a bit!"... and I talk about this single topic the most compared to each other topic :v but yeah how about that Sonic Forces Honestly the latest gameplay has convinced me to look forward to it. I'm genuinely surprised by how expansive the custom character's Park Avenue stage looks compared to the first snippet of gameplay we saw from it. Green Hill doesn't look bad either. The most jarring thing about them to me is the placement and behavior of most of the enemies (latter complaint also applies to Classic). I mean, they are literally not doing anything? I feel like in U/C/G enemies would at least seem to make an effort to attack you if you were moving slowly. But in Forces they really are just...standing there. It looks kind of off. Adding to the positives of the custom character though, I do like how the Wisps are implemented into the gameplay. I didn't mind that they totally transformed you in Colors and Lost World, but something about them influencing your vanilla moveset is really cool tbh. It looks fun and intuitive, and like a real evolution of their implementation. As for the returning gameplay styles, I'm not sure what to say other than I'm happy with what I've seen out of Modern and I'm mixed on Classic. Incidentally, we've seen the least gameplay of them right? Hopefully Classic's stages do get more complex, like the progression we saw in Generations' Classic stages. I kinda want to see at least a bit from one more level of either of them before the game drops, but in general I'm convinced that it will be enjoyable. Oh also I do like the songs so far (though put me in camp "could do without the intro of custom character's Park Avenue") and the story certainly looks interesting. It's hard to tell from the gameplay alone, but Roger Craig Smith's Sonic and Cindy Robinson's Amy sound a lot better to me compared to Lost World.
Having a hypothetical game with a different concept be developed by a separate team isn't going to guarantee success. In the event that the game is not particularly received well in the end, then what do you expect them to do next? Currently, Sonic Team is working on the boost-style gameplay because that gameplay has been consistently well-received and has been requested a lot. People shouldn't make judgments regarding the amount of improvements to the formula at this point in the first place. Only one regular Sonic stage has been shown and made playable, and it's most likely the first Sonic Stage in the game. Asking them to improve on the concept is distinct from saying that they should make a new engine just because they didn't do what the person wanted or simply didn't cater to their wants. The complaints about physics in the Modern Sonic gameplay that I see don't make sense because the focus of the gameplay was different from the start.
Hmmmm... hmmmmmmmm... Blocky UIs that cut off the corners, complete with constant chatter in the upper right corner? Are they seriously trying to be Persona?
I dunno, how many games can you think of that use that style and came out relatively recently? Also...Atlus is owned by Sega. :P
If you don't think the complaints about physics make sense, then you missed what Blue Blood said about every player's run through a level looking virtually the same. That's as much a failing of the physics rules in Boost gameplay as it is in Sonic Team's inability to build varied levels that don't railroad the player so much. Whatever the reason for that inability doesn't matter. That's the end result we see, and we can ask for more than that without being armchair devs. "You guys don't understand what making a game is about" isn't a valid defense for largely automated, spectacle focused gameplay, and I say that as someone that likes Boost. A rollercoaster is an engineering feat, but a skatepark is more fun when you git gud. A rollercoaster cart is also several times more complex than a skateboard. You get me?
Blue Blood's statement is pointless hyperbole. If people attempt to take the fastest path or the one that leads to the most rings, then of couse those runs will look the same, and that goes for the Classic series as well. Physics has nothing to do with that. He hasn't actually paid attention to the level design of Sonic Generations, the latest of the boost-style games, if he says that. I get sick of the Classic games being excused whenever comparisons between the two regarding several of the things that are complained about in the boost games are made. This supposed physics issue is nothing more than a thinly-veiled complaint about the new Sonic games and their mechanics and design being different from the classic games. The so-called end result, completely derived from seeing one stage. Once again, there is the automation complaint even though not only are there several places in the classic games in which rolling is all that needs to be done to get through a section, but also many of the stages from Generations don't actually seem to be much more automated than most of the stages in SA2, a game that is typically praised. There are several platforming sections in that game that have little to none of this so-called automation. Places like the battlemech chase in the Avatar character's Green Hill stage make the stages more interesting, so I don't see how sections like that are bad for being spectacle-focused, as you say. There are much fewer instances of control being automated than what your hyperbole suggests. Also, my statement that making a game is more difficult than the people here make it out to be was directly targeting Blue Blood's statements that Sonic Team should start from scratch and, after my initial response, that they should at the very least make a new engine. From his comments, those statements were mainly motivated by him not getting the game that he wants, not mainly for the games to be improved. Of course, Classic Sonic being used and the mere concept of a custom character is apparently so wrong to him as well. As I said before, that is a pretentious line of thought and additionally, if Sonic Team were to make and focus on a different gameplay style, it could potentially create another division in the fanbase along with the other issues that I mentioned.
Automation and level design go hand in hand. If they don't have a physics system in place, there's no way they can implement a more varied and deep level design. If they go for totally linear level design with a few blocky platforming section, there's no need to put a physics system in place. It's the very reason the physics were gradually stripped out after Adventure 1. The game had linear level design and they had to cut some corners because of hardware limitation/time constraints/whatever, so since they couldn't do better with the physics in Adventure 2, the made the level design even more linear. Since then, they kept that level design making the physics system useless, hence the situation we're now in that actually had its peak point in 2006 where Sonic could literally walk on walls and ceilings because the game had very botched up physic. Generations fares better in comparison, but as we've seen with Lost World they don't look like they're going in the right direction. Take a look at some of my videos, they're on this very subject and maybe seeing what I'm talking about makes it clearer. Check this one out and the one in my signature too. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WUCpfigCaOE Seeing the 2D sections from the classic games and the 2D sections from the modern games in comparison and saying that the modern ones are just as good is objectively wrong. They're much more shallow, linear, blocky and basically un-Sonic-y. Any other platform character could traverse them, even Megaman or Mario. I brought up the 2D sections because that's where most of the platforming gameplay you mentioned takes place. The 3D sections require barely any control anyway (for the most part, there are some nice 3D sections but they're very few and far one from the other) and they're mostly straight corridors or "spectacle" sections, so.
I'm more concerned about people claiming objectivity out of their subjectivity than about the quality of modern or classic level designs. You know why the people that think they can enjoy the game doesn't make such "strong" arguments so often? Because they don't need and don't want to demonstrate their opinions are better, and there's no point in doing so if some self-proclaimed objetcive observers don't accept real arguments when those go against their opinion, no matter if that opinion has a solid base or it is pure crap. Making the same things in 3D as they were in 2D is clearly harder, but they're not trying to do so, and this modern gameplay is mediocre, but nothing tells them that's bad if they sell enough, because people don't need perfection in every aspect of their lives, starting with videogames. You think the game's bad? Do a good fan game yourself and we'll agree. You think the game is great as it is? I'll let you have fun, as there's no chance I can force you to enjoy or dislike the game, and I don't need to because it's your life and your choice. But, please, stop ranting, stop arguing on an unnecessary way, it's obvious there are as many opinions as players, some more concerned about true objective factors, and some others not giving a damn about it as long as they can have fun.
I wasn't even talking about the 3D sections when I said that. I said that the 2D sections in the modern games are way less deep, well structured and are generic and blocky, that they could be traversed by any other character other than Sonic and they hold no comparison to the 2D classic games, and I think that it's pretty much a fact, it's not my opionion. I'm not one to dismiss other people's opinions, I'm not some superhuman, but those are not opinions, just look at any level map. You could even just play any game side to side and see that the modern games are clearly derivative from the classic ones but do so without getting the appeal and the design philosophy behind the originals. I agree that Sonic in 3D is a much more complicated subject and I wasn't talking about that at all. 2D is how Sonic was born and there's no justification for the modern 2D level design. I mean if you like the modern games there's nothing wrong with that, I did like Generations and Unleashed, I even had fun with Lost World, but I can clearly see their flaws and point them out. No game is perfect, but the modern Sonic games just don't get it. EDIT: Opinion: I like the modern Sonic games, I enjoy the 2D sections because they feature pure platforming sections and are not always blazingly fast. Fact: The modern 2D sections are less deep than the classic levels, they're way more linear, don't feature as many branching paths, the platforming is blocky, the slopes serve no purpose and the ramps are automated making momentum-based level design impossible. Now had I criticized your personal opinion then ok, but I just pointed out some facts. I don't know if I didn't word the sentence correctly, when I said "as good" I meant it on a quality level, I wasn't referring to personal tastes.
There was a Famitsu interview with Nakamura-san and Iizuka-san at E3, and here's an English translation. It reveals a little about the background of the Avatar character and how the idea originated, among other things.
Absolute relativism is everyone's bread and butter here nowadays. Nothing is better or worse, nothing is more valid than anything else, even if all of the evidence says otherwise. They defend any bad design choice in the Sonic series. They defend Sonic 4, even its music. If Sega put dog shit in a box and put the name "Sonic" on it they would argue it's good because it makes good fertilizer, and if you say it's bad then it's just because you don't like change. You can show design theory and data that virtually prove the gameplay in one Sonic game is inferior to another, and they will still respond with "Uh so just because you don't like it means it's worse? Huh? Is that what you're saying?" every time without fail. Every point, criticism, demonstration, will be trivialized to lol opinions to ensure not a single thing you say has any validity, they will first go after your views and criticisms to mean nothing before making an actual argument. Do not make an attempt to criticize Forces or any other modern Sonic game. Even when obligated to put forth an argument, it will be the most sad and absurd points, such as "automation doesn't matter the classic games were pretty much automated too and I would just be holding right anyway". If all you care about is "a fun game", you have a million options. Why are you playing Sonic? Why are you even here? Go play something else. Go to another game series forum, and tell those fans how their beloved game series doesn't have to be the way they love it, and how they're full of shit for not wanting it to drastically change because who cares you can have fun with it anyway, and god forbid they try to defend their position, no they need to shutup and just watch the series they love get twisted and mutilated and reduced to mush, because what they want doesn't matter, all that matters are what these strangers want who don't even care what the series is. Tetris is fun. I don't want Sonic to be Tetris. Mario is fun. I don't want Sonic to be Mario. If all fun were identical, there would be no point in different game series. We got into Sonic games for what they were, not what they weren't. There was a well established definition of Sonic, and that's what we're fans of. If you don't give a shit what a series does where it could be completely different overnight and you wouldn't bat an eye, how are you even a fan of it? That's not a fan. That's someone who doesn't give a shit about the series and has no business telling fans that they're wrong. The most odd part I find in this, is how dedicated these people are to gunning down the views of fans and desperately defending the modern games, while in the same breath swearing there's no such thing as a Sonic and nothing to have any convictions about. I would even go so far as to say, sure, like the modern games, there's things I like about them, but there shouldn't be this blatant denial of the problems these games have, the ways they've regressed from the classics, and how Sonic's identity has been confused and forgotten. That's not good enough though. We'll have to be told that Sonic has no identity, no valid definition, that these problems aren't actually problems and nothing about them is in any way inferior to the classics, even the parts that are directly copied and thoroughly stripped down. We're not allowed to disagree, only agree, and it has to be with the side that doesn't care about Sonic, and only then is discussion acceptable. No criticisms, no "negative opinions". Sshh. Just praise now.
The thing that gets me about the background music so far is that this is probably the darkest Sonic since the infamous '06 entry. You would think Ohtani, who composed some seriously epic pieces for that game, would recognize that the music would need to step up accordingly. Say what you will about 06 as a game, but the music was suitably epic and urgent, or haunting and emotional depending on the level and context. You would think an evolved version of that sound would be what Ohtani would shoot for, instead of this perky EDM that sounds straight out of the Sonic R reject pile. I don't know what Ohtani's thinking. Sonic's very world is at stake, and the music does not reflect this whatsoever.
Because I think the games are fun. Er, wait, who is who in this scenario? We have a series in which the current main branch is a high-speed rollercoaster in which the main replayability goal is time attacking. You want to turn it into a physics-based sandbox in which the main replayability goal is exploration, because that's what it happened to be twenty years ago. So yes, stop telling fans of modern Sonic how they're full of shit for not wanting their series to drastically change because who cares what they think, you don't like it, and god forbid they try to defend their position, no they need to shutup and just watch the series they love get twisted and mutilated and reduced to mush, because what they want doesn't matter, all that matters are what these strangers want who don't even care what the series currently is. This is especially egregious when Sonic Mania exists. Nobody is suggesting otherwise. There still is an established definition of Sonic. It's changed over time, as everything does. This forum is dedicated to fans of the old style, but for some reason that means we're not allowed to be fans of the current style, and that the current style is objectively bad. Because you say so. When did the series change overnight? It's been a gradual change over the last 25 years. Nobody is saying this. Nobody is denying problems of the game, "regression" is entirely subjective, and Sonic's identity hasn't been forgotten at all - it's changed. Nobody is saying this.
Sonic 06? Every song in that game outside of White Acropolis 1 and Red Volcano 1 is utterly forgettable and dull. I'd rather have "dark" Sonic music that's actually good or not-so-dark Sonic music that's enjoyable - even if it's not completely fitting - than listen to the boring mess that is the 06 soundtrack. "Epic" my arse. Again, we've only heard a few pieces of music, all of which are from (very likely) the first two stages you play with Modern, Classic and Avatar, the beginning of the game. It's not supposed to have a dark, "epic" atmosphere yet. And listening to the music that plays during that metallic spider boss fight, I'm sure the music will get more "epic" later depending on the situation. And we shouldn't forget that just about every memorable final stage theme in the series has been more upbeat and funky than "epic", Metropolis, Launch Base, Sonic & Knuckles' version of Death Egg, Final Egg, Dead Line (Rush) just to name a few.
