You're not describing why placing dash panels during / before scripts is good design, you're justifying its design by explaining its purpose. Of course the reason of their placement here is to (help the scripting) push the player through the S bend formation, but that doesn't mean that reason in of itself is good. It would be like saying placing badniks behind dash panels that curl you into a ball in Sonic 4 is good game design because it allows the game to kill the badniks for you. Yes, that's their purpose, but that doesn't make it good game design, not by a longshot. The scripted tunnels aren't vaguely implemented in their design here. The tunnels have the same straightforward structure as they always have been (a one-way trip from one area of the level to another), and the moment the player steps into it, the tunnel gives them a speed boost, which is strong enough to carry them through the entire formation. The game carries the player into the exit of the tunnel as opposed to just inching them along in the old games. Player error does not have any input here, there isn't any way the player could somehow break the scripting and/or actively work against it like in the Genesis games (either by having a small amount of speed or by moving Sonic backwards). Maybe using the word scripted for the tunnels was the wrong term choice, because at this point they too are also automated like the dash panels. Adding dash panels before or during these tunnels is just adding artificial boosts on top of artificial boosts for the sake of it. The only information a dash panel in a tunnel would tell players is that the game wants to rush them through the level constantly rather than allow the players to do it on their own free will, and that would prompt some to question why would they design the game like this. Whether it be because the gameplay itself is too poor to allow the player to roll through on their own, or if its because the designers actually believe this is integral to their level design philosophy, or some other third thing; it just looks like really lazy game design either way. Especially in a series which prides itself on a character and gameplay that boasts super speed as a trademark. +1 More or less.
Reposting this here. There is a huge difference in how these things function. This image does not adequately cover it either.
Wow. We live in a world where we're getting a Mario / Rabbids crossover with a dabbing DK Rabbid, the return of Shaq Fu, the sequel to the game of the generation (Knack 2), and now Bubsy striking back. This is truly the best timeline.
Keep the Bubsy talk on the Bubsy game to the Bubsy thread, please: http://forums.sonicretro.org/index.php?showtopic=36785
So what do you expect before going into an S tunnel? What about a loop? I agree that they shouldn't be literred everywhere as they are now, but come on, how is it any different than boost boost? Except with boost it's a panel attached to a button. The current direction of the entire franchise is going from new and groundbreaking to rehashed and dick sucking. It's fan service. Misguided and bland, but they're trying to hard to be "nostalgic" that it's turning into some ghetto copy cat of what Sonic used to be.
I expect nothing before going into an S-Tunnel beyond Sonic assuming ball form. Loops? I expect absolutely nothing. I want my own speed to carry me through the loop. Conceptually speaking, that was the literal ENTIRE POINT behind their existence. The engine supports that kind of movement on its own. It has some minor kinks, but nothing that couldn't be fixed with a little effort. If Sonic Team want to drop their standards, then that is their prerogative. I won't drop mine.
Well, it was obvious and expected but Sega have announced they'll be showing off Forces (and Mania) at E3: NeoGAF thread with the news here: http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1387867 Interesting that Mania gets first billing whilst Forces is a "second dose". Could be nothing but may be Sega are realising Mania's superior popularity. Also expecting that we'll see much more from Forces too. Hoping to see some new stages, or something to restore our faith a little.
Wouldn't read too much into that. Sonic Mania is just a couple months out from release, it makes total sense for them to push it particularly heavily with it being right around the corner with Sonic Forces probably not showing up until November or December.
I can almost picture that originally, SEGA were planning for Sonic Forces to be their main focus, with Sonic Mania being more of a side thing to keep "those retro loving types" happy, like what they tried with Sonic 4, and might have been expecting similar results. Of course now, the fans have reacted accordingly, and Sega now realise that Sonic Mania is now looking like the heavy hitter, with Forces getting slightly shadowed behind it, so now they're treating both with just as much care to make sure things go right. After all, if one game's good. It's going to (hopefully) sell the other. Of course this is all just my own take on the business side of things so I could be dead wrong! :v:
As far as boost pads go, it wasn't until Sonic Lost World Wii U that I started to despise them. Touch one and they not only force Sonic to move forward, but they lock the player's controls for a short period of time, usually just long enough for Sonic to hit a spring or another boost pad! Maybe the game being slower paced and more platforming centric and giving the player more freedom over their movements affected my perception, but the boost pads made the 3D sections of Lost World U feel far more automated to me than any of the ones in the Unleashed styled games, which played more like platformer/racer hybrids than fast paced platformers. I never felt this way because the type of 2D platforming that Modern Sonic does is completely different from what Classic Sonic does. My problem with modern Sonic getting 2D sections has more to do with how un-Sonic-like the 2D sections in most of the modern games feel and how they don't make very good use of his moveset, which works best (or only works at all) for the 3D sections to begin with. Over the years, many people have explained why in much better words than I'll ever be able to. While I can have fun with Colors Wii's 2D sections, I prefer Lost World 3DS's by a huge margin. Sonic's movements don't feel stiff like they do in pretty much every mainline 3D game since Unleashed. Wall running, wall jumping, and wall spin dashing were all abilities that can be used in both 2D and 3D and, in 2D, we have the occasional quarter pipes on the ground so that Sonic doesn't immediately enter his wall running state when spin dashing and quarter pipes on the ceiling to provide some alternate paths. The level specific obstacles all feel like the types of obstacles I could see in other Sonic games (though, many of them were straight up reused concepts from older games).
Lost World 3DS generally had some really good concepts, but the really bad concepts (Frozen Factory snowballs ftw) and lack of polish (FUCK the 3D camera) kinda ruined it. A shame really, with a couple more months in development they could have made a good handheld 3D Sonic. Lost World controlled so much better than Sonic Team's boost games, there was potential in the parcour mechanic, but... now they're abandoning the Lost World style for Forces anyway. For better or worse.
It's been that way since Sonic 2006, actually. In the boost games that's masked because you wouldn't be doing anything else other than keep running when hitting the boostpads anyway, so maybe, like you said, Lost World being slower-paced and focused on platforming just made those issues more evident for you, but it has been happening for a very long time now. Colours liked to do that a lot too. It's one of the main issues I have with the modern games because those are the only sections that "look" like they belong in a Sonic game, and those very sections take away control from the player and have literally no effect on the character and its interaction with the environment. Take a look at the classic Green Hill Zone footage from Forces, for example. The level itself is completely flat, there are only 3 or 4 slopes in total if I remember correctly, and there's a boostpad before each one of them. Let's not forget there are boostpads before each loop and S-tunnel too. That's almost Sonic 4 tier level design. Sonic games are just kart racing games and/or generic platformers with a couple of Sonic-like cutscenes slapped in every level.
just looking at what they're putting out to promote even classic sonic for this game, it's no wonder Mania is over shadowing this game
I wouldn't go quite that far. After all, if the Generations Modding community has shown us anything, it's that there's an actually pretty great game somewhere in there. The level design and object placement, as well as Modern Sonic gameplay blowing its load all in one go is what truly hampers the experience. What I mean by that, is, well, have you ever noticed how the enemies have been essentially reduced to props, how rings are hard to NOT collect, and how the boost meter doesn't even matter? Yeah, the game just gives you everything.
The camera could be problematic in some of the more open levels, but there were several things I hated much more: Not having a single target homing attack, the homing attack being mapped to the same button as double jump, enemies with health, enemies that need to be stunned before homing attacking, having to kill every enemy to progress (though this can often be circumvented/hastened by playing creatively), many of the stage gimmicks (like the previously mentioned Frozen Factory snowball), most of the wisp usage, every instance of gyroscope usage outside of Sky Road Zone 3, Hard mode not replacing certain ring trails meant to guide the player with trails made of lives, and every boss not named Eggman. Despite those being constant factors, I keep getting drawn back. It's somehow both one of my favorite and least enjoyed Sonic games. Hell, I recently forced myself to beat every special stage despite vowing to never play them due to the terrible gyroscope controls because I love the concept behind them. Part of me wonders if this is what fans of '06 regularly experience. If I'm just heading forward, the existence of boost pads in these particular locations doesn't bother me at all. I know Classic Sonic's well known for having to make use of his physics, but iconic obstacles like loops and S-tunnels literally only give the player one way to progress and it takes almost zero skill to do so. Rarely is anything interesting done with them. I'm far more bothered by the fact that the placement of them kills off any potential for backtracking.
I agree, but Generations is an exception. I think the vanilla game is not bad either, some sections are pretty good actually. The beginning of Sky Sanctuary, to name one, is pretty well designed. The layout is laid out in a way that the player can approach it by blasting through it, but that takes a lot of effort. That's what I would've liked to see for the whole game, but unfortunately there are very few sections like that. I get what you mean, but the fact that they already aren't much of an ostacle to begin with and give the player only one way to progress and they're still automating them is what's bothers me. If those boostpads would just boost Sonic's speed it wouldn't be as bad, but what they do is replace Sonic's speed value and then reset them once the scripted event ends. It's jarring to watch too, it happens a lot in Lost World. and the classic Forces footage shows that behaviour too. This may not be an issue in the modern games, since they're designed around automation, so the level design is created with scripted ramps, loops and slopes in mind. Removing those scripted events doesn't make a difference as of now, the game should be desgined differently from the beginning. Imagine having boostpads in Sonic 1 and 2 that behave like in the modern games every 5 or 6 seconds.
Can't make a vid now, but those boostpads are a fucking nonsense and there's a reason why. Take for example GH1 tubes that make you gain speed to reach upper mass of rings, that you can collect them all because cleverly placed buzzbombers apear to keep you bouncing. Well, you can go backwards though those tunnels making just a good jump to the exact spot of the ramp and rolling, then nothing stops you to reach previous part of the game except laws of physics in some manner. So what happens if you place a boostpad right after the tunnel, or worse, IN the tunnel? You're right, fuck that possibility. You can say that anyway it's a stupid thing to do, but you can use it to get all the rings for instance, and having that possibility taken away for just the sake of automation is just stupid.
