Sonic's character design and aesthetic

True, but that's not really happened with Sonic since the 2006 shitfest and Sonic 4 to a certain extend. The franchise has gone through different styles and designs since then that aren't as good as the original (Boom...) but there's not really been anything franchise ruining. I certainly wouldn't call Lost World an example of what you're talking about anyway.

 

LOL at the Mickey picture.



Man, Mario's taller and a bit thinner, they changed a few of his colors and gave some slight detail to him. Let me tell ya man, he's ruined!

Let's not even mention the part where we're once again trying to deny that Sonic's design was altered past Adventure, to the point of being made softer, rounder, shorter (in both height and quill length) and generally more expressive to fit a more well-rounded design.

Like Timmi said, his design has changed a lot more than you're giving credit for. Boom's is easily amongst the worst and most try-hard of them all, but thankfully it doesn't affect the series as a whole. And while Sonic's original redesign circa SA1 is now very dated, the differences between classic and modern Sonic at this point are so slim that I don't believe it makes much of any difference.

Looking at a squat, low detailed Mario in his classic game sprites and then seeing the slightly more detailed and lankier-proportioned 3D take on him is no different than seeing the more squat and lower-detailed classic Sonic sprites and then seeing the slightly taller and more detailed modern variant. Same difference, really.

 

Actually I don't like either of those very much. They hit a sweet spot with Mario's design somewhere between those that I consider ideal. Same thing with Sonic in fact, I don't care so much for the earliest iterations of his classic design.
I'd say this is a better comparison:




And while Sonic's design is no longer this extreme, you could imagine this design of Mario smoothed out some. It would still be pretty bad even if it wasn't as "radicool" styled, and I'd never be able to see it as a proper Mario design.

I can't agree with that. The differences are too stark and unusual between Sonic's designs. Mario's differences are much easier to digest, they retained something about his basics despite the change, might have to do with him being human and not a cartoon animal with completely fantasy anatomy. Sonic is now awkwardly proportioned and none of the classic expressions or poses look right on him. Altering that fantasy anatomy the way they did is really off putting, it doesn't sit right. He especially looks out of balance in 2D.

It's certainly not the worst that could be done. It's as others have said, it's just mediocre, and in relation to the standards already set, it goes against so much in wrong ways. There is incredible potential buried in the series and it's being neglected. The ingredients for that potential were established in the 90s, and all it took was continuing to nurture what they had, handling it with the care and understanding they had already been giving it. Instead they treated it as some husk of a marketable entity and altered it in the most superficial ways in cheap attempts for appeal. Like creating a beautiful car with a powerful engine, then painting all over it with flames and tanks, warping the exterior semi randomly, and replacing the engine with some fireworks.

 

I can get that. Lost World, while it doesn't look bad, looks very simplistic and somewhat generic.

Then again, I don't think Lost World is like what Sonic games will look like going forward. This is just me speculating, but I think it looks the way it does for budget/resource and hardware reasons. The assets for the Lost World levels probably take a lot less time and money to make than the more detailed Unleashed, Generations or even Colours levels do. And with there being far less objects and special effects on screen it was possible for them to get the game to run at 720p and 60fps on the Wii U's hardware. In comparison, Unleashed and Generations ran at a resolution below 720p on PS3/Xbox 360 (which are about as powerful as the Wii U) and struggled to run at a consistent 30fps. If they wanted to have the game look sharper and run at a better framerate they would have had to go with a more simplistic style.

Considering the amount of extra time they've been spending making it and how they now have much more powerful hardware to work with, I doubt that Sonic Team's going to make the next game look like Lost World.

 

I see all of this as hyperbole to the utmost extreme. Like, really. I was almost hoping you'd post that Mario just so I could get a laugh out of it. :v:/>/>/>

The most difference between classic and modern Sonic at this point is that he's slightly taller (with slightly longer spines), has green eyes and soles on his shoes. If our goal is to try to over-accentuate the "radicalness" of modern Sonic's current design to smear it and prove your point then we might as well draw classic Sonic like this:



Coming from someone who loves both designs a lot, I can tell you that it's not nearly as big of a difference as you make it out to be. But oh well, I'm basically done entertaining this.

I'm almost certain this is what's gonna happen as well.

Lost World's art style seemed like an experiment that was pushed by the want to get a solid 60fps running on PS3/360 tier hardware, which was never doable with Unleashed or Generations considering the amount of visual effort put into it. Mix that with how it was pointed towards a Nintendo-exclusive release and that would explain why it's visuals and general ideas seemed to attempt it's own take on several Nintendoisms.

 

I certainly hope so. Honestly I'd be alright even with a modern style game if they at least did a great job the core elements, gameplay and aesthetics. I've seen modern Sonic graze closely to the classics on occasion in style and goodness, there's still a lot of potential in there.

The difference is that the extreme modern Sonic officially existed and your example didn't. If nothing else it serves as an example of how Sega treats Sonic, and Sonic Boom is an example of this mentality persisting today.
Modern Sonic is not just taller with green eyes. There's a major shift in proportions. The way the limbs and torso are shaped look very weird. This with the CGI renders creates this very uncanny valley appearance. It's difficult to really convey this in words.

This looks awkward and borderline unsettling to me and I'm surprised others don't see it. At least look at the mouths and tell me you don't see how fake they look, even cringe inducing.

 

Complaining about a blue hedgehog that can run really fast having a "fake mouth"

Lol.

 

The mouth shading and shape problem in Colors/Gens is one I acknowledged ages ago (it doesn't look more natural like it did in Unleashed), as well as a few of the more recent renders of Sonic and how they emphasize that smirky "YEAH I'm SO COOL" thing with emphasized butt-brow thing going on.

So yeah, I know what you're talking about and even agree that neither of those are pretty, but I feel like it's at the expense of intentionally forgetting moments where he was particularly more emotive and expressive, such as those Unleashed videos I posted earlier. Or heck, even failing to acknowledge how he looks in-game, especially recently.

Also I'm willing to just drop this altogether instead of split the topic, so I guess from here on I'm gonna stick to what I said and not humor it further.

 

Your argument is, "if Mario looked like Sonic he'd look bad".


Well, duh. Mario isn't Sonic. If you drew Sonic in Mario's proportions he'd look just as ridiculous. Because... they're different characters!

 

This I agree with but I'm honestly very doubtful on whether the art direction of the previous games will come back. Following Lost World, I personally haven't seen/read/heard anything concrete that implied about where Sonic Team aims to go next with their next game regarding the artstyle of those games...let alone anything about where they will go next with their next game in general. Even Iizuka's interviews hasn't really dropped anything significant to what they're thinking or planning next for their future projects. It's the equivalent of Nintendo currently being tight lipped about anything tangible concerning the NX as of late (and I'm not really a fan of that either).

Sure, they could change to either the previous style or something different, but I feel there's an equal chance of it staying the same. And while I think Lost World's artstyle is fine for that title concerning the context / setting for that title, I wouldn't really be thrilled if they stuck with it for future titles.

 

I feel like a topic of that sort would be a moot point. Classic and modern Sonic are the same character with a few key design differences, and the amount that said differences matter depend on the person. There's no point continuing since neither side is gonna budge.

But I think my main point (which wraps this back onto topic sorta) is that I don't think the 90s aesthetic and the purely classic style really matter to make a great Sonic game. Would it be neat? Absolutely, I'd probably love the end result if applied properly. But the only classic-era thing in particular that I think is worth caring about that much is the gameplay, considering (bar most of Lost World) I believe recent Sonic Team has done more than well enough in the visuals department.

If the gameplay of the classics could be revisited in a way that brings it into modern standards (in other words, 3D) and doesn't half-ass it, I think the series would be way more than fine. And if that's what Sega's recent PR statements about Sonic quality assurance meant, then hey I'm not complaining.

 

Having come back to this thread after all the discussion, and having read everyone's comments, I just want to throw a few things in here.

First of all, I don't think anyone is saying that the series needs to stay in the 80s-90s, what we are saying is that the aesthetic ideals the series was founded on can still be relevant today. Sonic can evolve while still maintaining great design. Let's not forget that great design style used to be paramount to the brand, Sonic being more recognizable than Micky mouse, and all that. The series moved towards "realism" during the dreamcast only to show off the graphic capabilities of the new system. A lot of games did this, but in hindsight we can evaluate whether this was actually a good idea. Now it's true, for anyone to claim that one style is better than another is subjective, but that isn't an argument for accepting a lack of taste or consistency. How strange, that even with the graphical limits of the genesis it had a more fleshed out design aesthetic. The series can maintain an iconic look and still evolve and take advantage of current gen hardware. So, for example... I just grabbed this off google, but doesn't this look like an updated version of what Robotnik should be driving?? it's much more consistent. It can appeal to both children AND adults.





The series can modernize and still maintain a level of logic and continuity. Better art won't solve bad gameplay, but to act as though it isn't important is a very strange argument to make. I honestly think some people just don't understand the importance of this concept, they defend what Sega is doing, but fail to recognize that what Sega is doing has OBJECTIVELY been harming the series as a whole. We can't prove what we are saying is better, because it hasn't been done, but we can clearly see that what some of you are defending, actually is harming the brand... so ya...

I want the series to evolve, just make it consistent within an actual "world". Like, how about Robotic has a sidekick, a fem-fatal sort. She could appear in the levels and shake things up the way Knuckles did in Sonic 3, or she could serve as the mini-boss. They could call her Madonna, or whatever to harken back to nostalgia, but with a twist. She could be sexy, but villainous. Isn't that better than another random magic wizard, mutant boss, like always...

 

No one said anything about not caring about art direction, but moreso that the most recent games never really had a problem with it besides Lost World. Three games in a row kept to a style very consistently, and even reinterpreted environments from earlier eras in said style. But, you know, I guess those don't count considering that's apparently not good enough (???).

I mean I'm all for them expanding their creativity and a "world", and I definitely don't have anything against incorporating more classic era inspired ideas (far from it), but every suggestion made by one of you seems to be with the intent of pretending anything post-1994 just didn't happen. Also speaking as if the majority of the community agrees that every decision made since then has just been this unforgivable and unsalvagable garbage heap is pretty funny. It's not only delusional, but really self-entitled to try and carry discussion like that. :v:/>

This might as well be it's own topic to split off now, since the conversation just seems to keep going anyways. Would allow us to see upcoming game / social media news without this in the way, at least.

 

People complaining that discussing these design elements are "keeping it stuck in the 80's and 90's" just don't realize that the art and design utilized in the classics are simply the building blocks that artists use to create something new. But that's not their fault; they're obviously not trained in the craft and can't see the potential they have to create entirely new art styles from them.

Look at anything that exists today in the consumer/advertising/marketing world, and you will be able to break it apart into its inspirations, some of which can go back as far as 100 years. You still see things like Art Nouveau and Art Deco being utilized and re-equipped into today's world. The good stuff is never considered dated because the designers behind it know what the DNA of those styles are and are able to extrapolate it into something that fits in a contemporary context.

VectorCNC's examples of technology are a good example of this. Both are built from the idea of retro futurism, but realized through the lense of technology and style of the times in which they were conceived.

The problem with Modern Sonic's visual identity is that it has no cohesion. No unified vision. The people responsible for putting it together are obviously competent in the actual creation of these elements, but not necessarily in the concepts behind them, and are consequently unable to capitalize on each element's potential.


And there's nothing wrong about hoping that Sonic Team itself would take advantage of this design heritage either. It just obviously isn't a priority for them (or at least hasn't been up until this point; who's to say what the 25th Anniversary title looks like).

 

Assuming (and hoping) the thread is going to be split for this kind of topic;

On the topic of comparing Classic Sonic to Mickey, I've sometimes compared Modern Sonic to Max Hare from Silly Symphonies;

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZzCOffLMV3I
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jJKsOrS2048

Modern Sonic has a pretty stiff model nowadays (funny that the Adventure 1 artwork was pretty much the opposite), it wouldn't hurt to take some notes.

 

I wouldn't be against a topic talking about Sonic design if the discussion wasn't going to be the exact same roundabout with every contributor's visions extremely short-sighted to one particular era, and if the immense hyperbole in character / environment design difference was cut out.

Of course I don't see that happening, but still. ¯\_(?)_/¯

 

The only one being short sighted and prone to hyperbole has been you. Again, in a roundabout way you have said this once more... I think what you mean is that you don't mind the separate topic so long as people are agreeing with you.

One particular era is being referenced again and again because some of us have the opinion that this was the sole period that the brand had an identifiable design aesthetic. If you have an argument that a cohesive aesthetic has existed post the genesis period, then feel free to elaborate on this. We welcome it, Azooka!

This conversation has been illuminating. If it warrants a cut and paste to a separate thread that's fine, but can we drop the backseat modding?

I'm not saying that ONLY the classics have any merit, I'm saying it was a point in time with the most unified and coherent design. Later games have not achieved the same level, and I admit it hasn't been devoid entirely.

 

The only aspect in which hyperbole is being utilized is in the old Classic vs. Modern Sonic character design, which I could care less about at this point. It's a dead horse. But there's an immense amount that can be said and improved about other aspects of the franchise's aesthetics. I hone in on the promotional/marketing/UI design because that is what I am particularly qualified to discuss. But that can also harken to the fact that the world in which the games themselves are completely unrecognizable between titles now.

We had that consistency in the classics. We were approaching one in the Unleashed/Colors/Generations trilogy, but it lacked a style instantly associable with Sonic. Now the team is harkening back to classic aesthetics for nostalgic purposes without necessarily understanding the concepts behind why they were initially used. That makes it very limited in it's mileage because nostalgia can only go so far.