Sonic Unleashed: The Post-PC Port Discussion Thread

Will Unleashed HD being on PC finally have people realizing the Wii/PS2 version is the one that sucks?

 

Those people cannot be redeemed. Consider them lost children.

 

It's a bit much to assume everyone likes hubs in their platformers in the first place(I don't and have always been fine with a world map screen, if you even need to go that far(you don't)) For me it's just a death of a thousand cuts scenario. Instead of framing it as some sort of hypocrisy I think it's more productive to think about what Sonic Unleashed does differently.


-Hubs aren't a necessity, nor a genre convention. There are a lot of games even in 3D that don't bother with them. "Why are you interrupting my running and jumping?" is absolutely a valid question for the player to ask that has to be justified by the developer, especially for a Sonic game. Is it there to teach you something like in Dustforce?? To open up progression like in Super Mario? Enrich the world the characters exist in like in Psychonauts 2? If the answer is yes to any of those, is it actually good at any of those things?
-Is it common for other games to restrict your movement as much as Sonic(Ironically) does? I don't think so. Exploration is always kind of a crapshoot for me in this game in general because I'm never sure what in the scene is actually interactable and what's going to be arbitrarily blocked off, and the hubs crank this up by locking Sonic's movement so almost nothing you might try in a level will work. Contrast this with, say, Mario 64 having some secrets you can find with techniques you learned fucking about in any of the levels.
-Is it contrasting with the cohesiveness of the rest of the experience? Sonic unleashed was at least marketed with a hard stint toward nonstop, globetrotting action. The hubs bring that to a screeching halt more than most players were looking for, especially coming off the blockbuster style SA2 and the glacial 06. Compare to, again, Mario 64 where the game marches at a steady rhythm in part because you're doing the same thing in both level and hub. If you want a more narrative based example, look at Sonic Adventure. Feeling around for story triggers can be a problem there too, but at least roadblocks are almost never tied to arbitrary grinding or chatting with npcs, movement is never restricted and more thought was put into what to say with a smaller group of areas. The contrast between the Mystic Ruins in the past vs the present is already doing more to leverage it's hub to enhance story and atmosphere than Unleashed ever does.
-I don't think having to stop to talk to NPCs at all was the dealbreaker, but I do think that the reason folks are baffled is because it doesn't enrich the story or the locations any. The rest of the game doesn't even put up a fight in this regard, allowing these locales to completely wash over you. You only get hit with a slap on the wrist because of the collectables, and even then a quick sweep of the area is all you need. You don't actually have to come to understand these people or their day to day lives any better to collect them.
- Is there much to understand? If the game wanted us to stop and smell the flowers, where are the flowers? Are these substories really memorable? I can remember most of the NPC subplots to this day in SA1 and none of that was forced on me. Sonic Unleashed very occasionally begs for your attention like it has something to say, but then it chokes on the mic. Nothing comes out, which makes the whole exercise feel like padding.

I don't think including the hubs was a bad idea, I think any fully realized version of this game would have them, but the game is putting itself in an uphill battle it proceeds to lose by not following through on making it interesting to exist in. It becomes busywork most people want to pass through because it wasn't made to be anything else.

 

I still think Unleashed is borderline unplayable - both versions. The werehog is the opposite of fun to me. Without the werehog and the medals the game would actually be decent.

Also the hubs are not great since Sonic controls like a truck when going slow.

 

I don't know how it holds up now since I haven't played the PS2 version in over 13 years but when I first played it in middle school I thought it was peak and the best Sonic game ever. Even now without having played it in a while I think I'd probably still enjoy the day levels a lot, they felt fast and flowed nicely even if in hindsight they didn't have much going on in them

 

I'd say Unleashed was a transitional point. The story was lighter and more lighthearted than its predecessors, but not to the extent of Colors. Sonic and Eggman acted silly, but not as flanderized as in the Pontac/Graff games. The tone was cartoony and full of deliberate silliness, but it still had serious parts with Dark Gaia. The plot was simpler than in prior games, but it still had important events happening in the middle, like Sonic meeting with Tails, or the rescue of Pickle, or Chip getting his memories back. Contrast with Colors where literally nothing of importance happens between Sonic and Tails meeting Yacker, and the finale with Eggman's cannon - and even the destruction of the cannon and the park happened by dumb luck, making the whole adventure feel pointless.

Hubs are definitely a genre convention. Over 50% of 3d platformers have them, making those that don't the minority.

I'd argue that the game was marketed as a globetrotting adventure, and in a globetrotting adventure I'd expect to get to know locales and people from all over the world. Its Japanese title is even Sonic World Adventure.

 

Where are you pulling this data from?? There are a lot of bite sized 3D platformers on steam now that are more willing take or leave this stuff. This isn't the same genre it was on the PS2.I just did a glance over all the 3D platformers I've played on Backloggd and out of the 46 I remembered to list there, 25 don't.

Sonic Adventure 2 is also a globetrotting Adventure. All I'm saying is that the adventure game elements in the series are both a minority and controversial in previous iterations, so they have an uphill battle justifying them in follow-up entries. They're playing against expectations in a way that risks alienating people that liked the fact that Sonic was a nonstop action series up to this point.

 

I mean you answered it yourself that this issue is not liking or preferring hubs in general. If people don't like them, then fine. I just don't agree, nor do I think that it hurts the value of a platformer OR a Sonic game, nor do I think it needs to work overtime to justify itself.

I'm not bothered by it not doing that, but if it bothers you then I get it, because you expect Sonic to run full speed or use his moveset. Personally I have a mod for the PC port that lets me do that. Definitely speeds up the A-to-B so I'm cool with it, but it's really clunky and unruly in enclosed spaces so I know why they removed it. You can make a case for why that further proves these areas antithetical to Sonic's gameplay, if you want. But I'm not looking that deep.

Most I can say is that I think the entrance stages and hubs could've been better fused together instead of split in two. It's just not a dealbreaker for me.

I felt the game did a fine job with that, since you got to see a nice pocket of what their culture and scenario was like; that's in it's own way like a world adventure, treating each area as both part of your high-octane mission and a loungey vacation spot. The game could've been more about them being cowered and afraid about the fate of the world, or doing something far more amped up, but I don't think that was wholly necessary. I'm reminded of more low-stakes RPG townsfolk who have their own silly things to deal with. Maybe that's not your cuppa. Or maybe it's just not what you want here.

I just liked talking to them. Talking to people could've been greater tied to how you got the medals, maybe, but that would've just made people here more irate that they exist, honestly!

I liked how beautiful the hubs were and found all the nooks and crannies that were designed and modeled were interesting, and the music soothing enough to leave the game on and just kinda soak in the atmosphere. And while the writing isn't the best in the world, I thought the characters and their interactions were charming enough for me to entertain it at times and see what the game had to offer. If you didn't think that was worth it then you didn't, but I did.

I just don't really know what there is to say at the end of the convo. I get your points, but if I enjoyed what I got from roaming around the hubs, if I liked the characters, and if I thought it didn't really impede on my experience or feeling of cohesion to the rest of the game, then I don't know if I can personally write it off as "it was bad because what it did wasn't good". Write me off as just wanting vibes over function, if you want.

 

Just speaking from personal experience. Most 3d platformers I know of have them. Mario, Spyro, Banjo, DK64, Sly, Jak, Psychonauts, Ty, Epic Mickey, Yooka, A Hat in Time, Super Lucky's Tale, Kirby TFL...

I'm not familiar modern small indie 3d platformers, but those obviously came after Unleashed's time, and aren't big-name games.

SA2 was set in a city, the nearby landmass and islands, and space. Hardly a globetrotting adventure where you travel all over the world.

 

I bought into everything that Unleashed was selling so I never felt like I was in the groan zone when interacting with the game outside of the Day stages. If all you wanted to do after beating a Day stage was to get to the next level, then yeah I can see why people would hate this fluff. But I enjoyed the fluff and honestly didn't mind the hub world navigation (controls and all) or talking to people. All of it was cool to me.

It's hard for me to understand points for unleash being "bad" because nothing in Unleashed is outright bad on a technical level. It's a functional and polished experience. I can understand people saying there were some wrong decisions and breaking the pace of the game for them at least, but those points were never a problem in my eyes. It's an interesting game to see people discuss, but I don't think I'll ever find common ground with the majority.

 

Unleashed is set in a bunch of cities and islands too. Whether or not they're 'nearby' doesn't end up mattering. Unleashed covers a lot of different environments but it never feels like you're in one cohesive world quite like 3&K or SA1. Unleashed doesn't really feel bigger than even SA2 if you ask me.

 

It definitely felt bigger than SA2 to me. SA2 felt like it had just 5 different locales, and many of its levels were too short and simplistic, especially for a $50 game. Whereas in Unleashed when I switch zones it feels like I'm jumping from continent to continent (which I am). And when I, say, clear Skyscraper Scamper day, I feel like I've just blasted through half NY at bullet speed. Whereas when I beat City Escape in SA2, I feel like I did a sprint of a few blocks.

 

The post-game Eggmanland hub is a pretty cute touch. The npc robots are pretty interesting, haha. Totally forgot about these goobers. And I love how the music for the place is simply Eggman's theme.

Also, it's funny how the Eggmanland hot dogs are basically just "don't die in Eggmanland, several times." The time requirements are absurdly generous for every one, but I imagine the devs got absolutely spooked in playtests by how long people were initially beating the stage, and didn't want to commit to some proper time trials for this level. There are a ton of non-exploitive ways to save time to the point that I think at least a sub-20 minute cutoff for the last one would have been more than reasonable. But given that this stage is often one QTE away from killing you outright... I get it.

I still love Eggmanland. It's an awesome final level, and 60fps makes it even better.

 

I thought the hub world NPCs were cute in my last playthrough a few years back, although I would be lying if I said I remembered them all that well. The brave older sister in Shamar was a standout and I recall a little romantic subplot between a few of the European students that I liked keeping up with between the various countries - it was especially nice seeing some of the NPCs travel to different places as well and going on their own little adventures. The music alone kinda justifies the hub worlds for me, tbh. They could have done them better and I'd prefer they be improved moving forward (if code injection is ever a thing I'd LOVE to see a big overhaul of the hubs one of these days) but I think cutting them out of this game entirely is a net negative - it's a big part of the charm for me.

I'm tied up in Marvel Rivals and a Cyberpunk playthrough right now so this game is kinda on the backlog for me at the moment but I'm looking forward to getting back into it.

 

yeah I can't really imagine any version of Unleashed without the hub worlds, it's a major part of its overall scope and identity. I wonder if the negative backlash to the hub worlds at the time is what led to Sonic Team axing human characters from the series altogether during the 2010's? As a kid I remember believing a fake rumour that Wentos was going to appear in Colours, I was really disappointed when he didn't show up (or any of the human NPCs). Instead you just had Sonic & Tails in a completely empty amusement park, shit was like a liminal space lol.

the way Mario Odyssey handles hubs populated by NPCs is pretty interesting. They're a more natural and integrated part of the level; the next Sonic game could learn a thing or two from that. Between Frontiers and Shadow Gens it definitely seems like they're bending in that direction.

 

No it's not??? It literally could not be more clear. Moving through the hubs is repetitive, especially when you have to go around talking to NPCs. As in, it's annoying in the times that the game asks you to do that. Absolutely nothing about that says it's always asking that. I'm legitimately a little shocked you're doubling down on this. I honestly truly don't think anyone was under the impression that I was trying to say this, because they know the game! What's even the angle here? That I'm lying about my own experiences in a game everyone's played?

Anyway Wraith hit the nail on the head, I literally was just bringing this one thing up as an example of one more way the game stopgaps you from a smoother experience. It's far from the worst way, regardless.

 

My experience with 3D platformers was different even back then. Hub worlds were more common in the major titls but even then I still had stuff like Deblob where you literally just picked a level off of a playlist.

The map is not literal. The game is meant to evoke the sense of a globe-trotting action film which is why you go from San-Francisco to Egypt in the blink of an eye. I was just speculating that part of the flaccid response to these hubs might have been because expectations for Unleashed were similar.

They probably didn't help, but there was an overwhelming sentiment that they didn't belong already because of Shadow and 06. Unleashed was probably more akin to a last chance that didn't go that well than The Reason.

 

I did!! And it sucks!!!

Sonic Unleashed was truly a pain to play through and part of it was my decision to try to 100% it, and boy there's just so much to do in that game that's just extremely boring and annoying if you do that. You come to truly despise the hub world, the NPCs, and even all the levels themselves, thanks in part to all the god damned Hot Dog Missions. I had more fun, and feel that Sonic 2006 is a better game than it, despite how beautiful and great the daytime levels are. Sonic 2006's hub world at least is pretty fun and spacious, and the NPCs are really funny and absurd, rather than Unleashed's NPCs that are all written with this, like, "cute humor" that makes them pretty boring and toothless. Sonic 2006's NPCs straight up feel like Yakuza NPCs, which I think is the gold standard to what a "open world game NPC" should be like (not that either games are open world but hopefully you get what I mean)

I really do believe just popping the Unleashed Project Gens mod is a much better experience than Unleashed - you get exactly all the good parts of Unleashed, made mostly even better thanks to not having QTEs, better controls, and no level-up system. Nothing else about the game is good.

I guess Unleashed Project doesn't include Eggmanland, which I think at least the "daytime" sections are really interesting, the series never dared again to make a Boost level that was *that* demanding, and they're pretty fun challenges (in a vaccuum... divorced from being a 30 minute level....)

 

I'm not saying that there weren't 3d platformers without hubs back then. But like I said, those were still the minority. Having hubs was the norm in the genre, and those that skipped them tended to be budget titles.

My point is that Unleashed is literally an adventure set all around the world. As in, you visit Sonic's equivalent to various real life countries from all over the world, like you're on a world tour. The game makes this clear, from the Japanese name to the zones being named after the in-universe countries rather than the levels to the plot involving Sonic fixing the entire planet to the environments being all modeled after real life settings (aside from Eggmanland) to the Japanese game logo featuring the planet. SA2 doesn't even come close to evoking that, nor does it try to.

If they hadn't let you see what the people and cultures from all these countries you visited looked like it would have made Sonic's world feel bizarrely empty and desolate, especially considering that many of the levels take place in cities or towns.

The limited flashes were there for a reason though. So that you would use them conservatively and tried to figure out which NPCs were possessed by Dark Gaia from their demeanor, rather than just mindlessly flashing everyone you talked to (that sounded wrong).

 

Shamar Night is easily my favorite song on the entire OST.