Sonic Frontiers Thread - PS4, PS5, Xbox, Switch, PC

I personally think Flynn would work best if he could work on a project that he was fully in charge of the scenario and writing. Sure, the stuff he does for Frontiers works well enough most of the time, IMO, but he's still having to work around Sonic Team's framework, which can be constraining, and you can tell where he's chafing against that.

The core problem is that whoever's handling the scenario writing and direction at Sonic Team isn't all that good or consistent at it (and I'm being charitable here, but I haven't seen the original Japanese dialogue so frankly I can't judge) and the fact that they need someone else to come in and rewrite the script for English audiences is kind of a red flag.

 

I do not recall anything about Boom so I can't comment on anything related to that; I'm only speaking about Frontiers here. I can't speak for anyone else but myself, but if you wanted a specific reason why I don't care much for Amy in Frontiers is because her motivations are vague and her dynamic with Sonic is boring. And no, this is not simply because of Frontiers' tone, because as I mentioned, Tails, Knuckles, and especially Eggman and Sage have much more clear character motivations and dynamics with Sonic, even if I don't completely agree with some of them, I can at least understand what they were going for.

Amy's quest on Kronos is about reuniting two star-crossed lover Koco with each other. Now you'd think this would relate in some way to her dynamic with Sonic like the quests for Tails and Knuckles do, but doesn't. The closest it gets is when Sonic starts getting impatient with the whole thing and Amy snaps at him for it, and that's over as quickly as it comes. By the end of the whole thing, the experience made Amy realize that she "wants to spread love across the world" and like, what does that even mean? Knuckles wants to go out and see the world as opposed to be stuck on Angel Island for the rest of his life, and Tails wants to prove that he can be as capable as Sonic when it matters. Clearly defined goals, but I'm struggling to understand what does "spread love across the world" means for Amy? Its incredibly vague. And look, you don't even have to take my word for it, Ian Flynn himself didn't really have an answer when someone asked him directly about it.

Relevant Part is at 21:46



Now granted, I talked with someone that speculated that its probably because Amy is the first one you rescue and encounter, her segment is more dedicated to establishing the story and setting as opposed to her character. I can accept that reasoning, but it doesn't really change my feelings about it. You're free to disagree, I'm just giving my reasoning.

Yea, but in trying to do that, they just made her bland. In trying to solve one problem, they inadvertently made another. Now granted, if you like current Amy the way she is because she's "not annoying" then power to you, but I think that's a flawed perspective to look at character writing. Because then it just turns into a subtractive game. If you remove everything you don't like about a character, you aren't really left with much tbh.

What they should have did was learn to reframe those negative traits into something positive, turn a weakness into a strength. But they didn't, so its whatever.

 

The scenario itself is also limited by the gameplay. Frontiers from the start was about Sonic saving his ghost friends, which limits what you can really do. I think that's why there's so much focus on the dialogue this time, because not much actually happens in the plot. There's no, "Wait, why is Tails too afraid to fight Chaos 0?" to distract us

 

The update’s Japanese script is much closer to the English this time. The original had those machine translation comments but it was actually substantially different in certain scenes.

I didn’t like Frontiers’ story. The only part I genuinely found impactful was the shmup battle with The End in English. The Japanese lines were not as good. I thought all the characters’ dialogue seemed like Flynn sat there with a checklist of complaints that he had to address. With every line I could hear the voice of the writer as opposed to the character and it took me out of the experience.

As for the western vs. Japanese writer debate… there are genuine differences in how the average westerner approaches storytelling compared to an eastern writer. It’s not about being a weeaboo or something. I don’t really watch anime or read manga for its own sake, and only do so for specific series I’m interested in. So I wouldn’t say I prefer Japanese storytelling, but I do in the context of Sonic because it feels more consistent to the world and characters that have already been established.

However, outside the story, I really do enjoy this game. Idk why but I can’t help but loving it. There’s something about moving around from rail to rail, platform to platform, and quickly grabbing the memory tokens in an improvised route of your own.

I made a NG+ yesterday to play the update on Extreme and had fun blasting through the first four islands going relatively quickly and making use of the skips for Kronos and Ares. I was able to get to Ouranos in around 4 hours.

One interesting thing that I noticed, was that the NG+ on Extreme carried over stat improvements that I made in my Hard mode Final Horizon playthrough. Like all the characters started out with full skill-trees and levelled stats. I don't think this is intended as Extreme is supposed to disable levelling. Sonic also apparently retained his max levels but I noticed the lv. 99 rings wasn't reflected on the HUD as that only said "x/400." Weird.

 

the fact that the rail-switching didn't kill me like Heroes did was a plus in my book

 

The newish platforming challenges to get special Koko are fun. They're a small increase in difficulty over the base game.

It's a shame that this final DLC was so ass, because everything that came before it was pretty good.

 

This is what I spoke about in my own earlier post in terms of Amy's best and driving character trait right now being compassion in a way that contrasts her from Sonic's que sera attitude that is only concerned with making sure people have the freedom to live as they please, so long as that freedom doesn't impinge upon or harm anybody else. And the thing is, that's there not just in Mania Adventures, but in the IDW comics (her classic appearances in particular) and even Frontiers herself, where that contrast does actually bring her into brief disagreement with Sonic over trying to reunite the Koco with their loved ones, perhaps seeing all causes as important whereas Sonic's working to the big picture in this scenario.

I think the trouble is that it can't stand on its own and it doesn't quite feel like Amy without those traditional aspects of her character running in tandem. That could be for a whole host of reasons, but I think chief here is the somber tone that Frontiers' writing is gunning for. Now that I think about it, I'd say the only scenes trying to get a chuckle out of players (outside of Sonic's general wisecracking) would be the teasing between Sonic and Knuckles. Meanwhile, Amy's traditional elements are generally played in a more lighthearted setting, so I can see why there'd be hestitation in trying to write those into Frontiers, lest they be jarring.

 

To me, Amy's strengths as a character are in how she contrasts with Sonic in how they approach their heroism. Sonic is a pretty confident dude who is more than capable of handling anything that comes his way, but has a bit of an arrogant streak that makes him slip up every now and then. Amy tends to be just as confident, but lacks the ability to actually make a change like Sonic, but makes up for it by being much more compassionate and emotionally open. Its why Amy was able to reach out to the likes Gamma and Shadow, but Sonic can't.

I don't entirely agree that Frontiers' tone is to blame, because as mentioned, Tails and Knuckles' writing is mostly praised, and its not like their characters have been treated that much more seriously than Amy. I feel like the main issue at hand is that, in trying to move away from traits that are deemed "problematic," they kind of upend the whole dynamic. Both Sonic and Amy nowadays are both pretty confident, kindhearted and capable so there's not much in the way of contrast. Tails is struggling with his self-esteem and how he measures up to Sonic, and Knuckles with his sense of duty conflicting with his desire for companionship. Amy needed that same type of conflict.

@Overlord is right, because the Classic universe gets it. Sonic is allowed to be a bit more impulsive, and Amy is allowed to be more vulnerable. The recent 30th Anniversary comic is another good example; Sonic gets caught off guard due to his own arrogance, and Amy has to spend the whole story avoiding conflict to save the day because she's simply not strong enough to take on Metal Sonic in a head to head fight, and more to the point, she's terrified of him. So when she gets the courage to bait him in the climax, it feels earned.

I'm not saying that Sonic needs to screw up more to make way for Amy, or that Amy needs to be underpowered to work, but that the strengths of these characters lies in their differences and contrasts. In trying to move away from the traits that made Amy standout compared to Sonic, due to backlash and modern day trends, they kind of make her redundant because she's just another friend of Sonic as opposed to being a foil, something the likes of Tails, or Knuckles and even Shadow, do much better at in certain circumstances.

 

Future games would absolutely benefit from having timed/scored challenges in the world. The Action Chain challenges are a good bit of fun, they almost turn exploring the world into feeling like speedrunning a stage.

Finally getting to updates 1 and 2 definitely brought back that I really did enjoy this game: the final update got way too ambitious for it's own good; the game really is a good bit of fun when you're not trapped on a single island with nothing but mega-hard challenges to overcome.

 

Amy is great here, I agree. But I still don't understand how Amy is a 'girlboss'. I distinctly remember people kneejerk reacting over Stephen Frost saying Amy would be capable unlike in the past. But in Boom I don't think Amy is a girl boss at all? And in Frontiers that's not the case at all. Frontiers Amy is exactly the same as this, compassionate and caring. Just told terribly. But the concept is no different than this.

@Sonic5993 I appreciate you going into depth, but I don't really understand how there's some kind of genuine move to be less 'problematic' in Frontiers. Amy is still invested in love and it is presented as feminine since only she is. She's still needing rescuing etc. I'm not saying that is problematic, but it's not some major shift to be more girl boss.

Im not saying anyone is being sexist btw. I just think it's really important to fight against this idea that there's some clear move to make Amy Feminist or whatever. I actually do understand it with some characters, like Tawna in Crash 4, but not Amy. She's just boring in Frontiers because the writing is appalling. But she's still Amy. She's no different in personality. Still invested in love.

 

@Laura I've explained it as best as I possibly could, so I think it's better to just agree to disagree here and drop it.

 

You haven't given a single specific example of Amy being changed to be more Feminist friendly.

 

I already explained how Amy and Sonic's characteristics nowadays basically overlap with each other as a means of showing Amy on an even playing with him.

So once again, I don't know what else I can explain to you that you aren't understanding and I'm slowly losing interest in this topic.

If I've done a poor job at explaining it, then that's even more of a reason to not even continue this and to let someone else pick up the slack.

 

Didn't Ian write the Frontiers script first, and THEN it was translated into Japanese after the fact? It sounds to me like he was given some of the usual SEGA mandates (which I'd argue are big problems themselves, but that's a whole different can of worms), and a general outline for the game's story, but pretty much did his own thing after that and then the team adapted his script after the fact.

To me, it's the opposite of watching an anime in japanese first. The English version is much closer to "how it was intended", regardless of whether or not you like the JPN characterization (which I'll admit has usually been more even and consistent across all the game lore...)

 

With the exception of Forces, every game since Colors has been written and recorded in English first. Hence why the lip syncing is to the English language.

 

Which is my major point. Sonic's identity as a Japanese branded character hasn't really been relevant since the mid 2000s. And even then, the SEGASONIC version of the character was only ever really relevant in the 90s games, Sonic X, the OVA, and a very limited number of JP tie in products.

A substantial amount of what we know of the character and his success is a western influenced product, even if some of the 90s side media deviated too far from the core, the same could be said of some of the japanese spinoff lore as well. The Sonic "Nicky" manga literally led to the creation of multiple later characters from the games, yet it is vastly different from any other incarnation of the character.

https://sonic.fandom.com/wiki/Sonic_the_Hedgehog_(manga)

90s Sonic did indeed have a strong anime/manga influence. You can see a lot of it if you follow the interests of the original team members and know what media influenced them and their tastes. However, the brand was much more succesful globally and remained fairly niche in Japan, so in the end the lore has pivoted to be more friendly to westerners. To the point where little of the original 90s or adventure era anime influence is even terribly relevant anymore in today's much more globalized market.

I very much like anime sonic, arguably even prefer it in many ways, but all the same, I don't think that means people can ignore the influence of quippy, snarky, self aware, western teenage sonic either and how it influences the writers over time. In the modern western world, millennials and Gen Z who are self aware and self referential 'are' the default persona of pop culture teens and college students. That's going to impact how "modern" characters are written over time.

 

The 6th generation of games until 2009 basically defined what Sonic is to the millenial generation and some of Gen Z, and those were the most Japanese adjacent games at the time.

So if people are usually speaking out about Sonic being "shonen" or Anime or some shit, nine times out of ten, they're speaking about those specific games.

It's pretty easy to write off the Western influences of Sonic too since, as you said, it heavily deviated from what the series would eventually become. And that view is kind of validated a bit when Sonic Adventure adopted the Canon established by Sega of Japan and ignored whatever Sega of America did to that point.

But since Sonic is more popular everywhere else in the world while being niche in Japan, it's Western influences tend to take precedent.

So you end up in this weird scenario we have where people's views and understanding about Sonic comes entirely from which version of the Canon you grew up with.

 

And the brand has deliberately pivoted to deal with that practical reality.

Also, I would argue Sonic's shounen era died off after 06, as Unleashed, despite a fantastical ending, already takes the art style of the cities and characters in a radically different, more cartoony direction.

I personally think Yuji Naka had a heavy influence on "Shounen Hero" Sonic the entire time, and when he left, Iizuka took it in a different direction and more willingly started blending elements of western and eastern Sonic together until we have the very unusual state of things we have now. I think Iizuka has always been more receptive to western Sonic fandom than we gave him credit for back then, and he only allowed for some very serious mistakes in half-baked products like Sonic 4.

The only other IP that has this type of situation is Transformers, where influences from both East and West tend to dominate the brand, but the western influences usually become more prominent due to the brand being more popular globally than in Japan itself. This is despite the toyline being based on a Japanese retooled line, and several reasonable successful anime spinoffs during the 80s, 90s, and 2000s. It's now reached the point where Japanese exclusive media is regularly incorporating western exclusive lore directly into the brand's storytelling.

At the end of the day, people need to accept that Shounen era Sonic was probably a Yuji Naka thing and will never fully come back as it was. That died when he left during 06. Games released in 07-09 really are NOT a proper representation and are their own strange transitional period.

 

I mean, you can SAY this, but its not gonna change how people feel.


Current Sonic is kind in this weird hybrid where its trying to be both at once, but not entirely succeeding. You still have people who who prefer Western Sonic who hate the "anime bullshit" from Frontiers, and you have the people who prefer the Japanese incarnation who don't really care for the "meta bullshit."... that's also in Frontiers.