The Supreme Topic of 'Other' Knowledge.

Devon · Aug 14, 2023

Sonic 3 and Sonic & Knuckles features a few sprites that use the prototype Sonic 1 palette that was found in digitizer files, alongside appearing in a few other games (Sonic CD, Sonic Crackers, and Sonic Eraser). This is probably because one of the sprites is a slightly touched up Sonic 1 sprite, so they most likely inherited the palette from there for the other sprites.

doc eggfan · Aug 14, 2023

I'm not sure if this is well known or not, but I just stumbled across this. Probably same composer - Naofumi_Hataya

Devon · Aug 14, 2023

Devon said:

So, in the classic games, did you know that if you jump on the exact frame Sonic steps on a flatter surface after running up a slope, you can achieve a higher jump than what was intended?

Let's take this section from Collision Chaos Act 3

Under normal circumstances, that jump should not be possible. So, how is it?

Let's deconstruct the 2 blocks involved

The left block has an angle of 0xF0, which translates to 22.5 degrees. The right block has an angle of 0xF8, which translates to 11.25 degrees. Normally, the left block would allow you to jump that high, but not that quickly horizontally, and the right block would do the opposite.

What allows you to do that jump has to do with how Sonic updates his speed on the ground and when he checks for jumping. Each frame, the first thing it does is check if Sonic should jump. If he should, it exits out of the update routine completely. The next major step involved in this is that Sonic's X and Y velocity get calculated from his ground speed and angle, and then that is added to Sonic's position. Towards the end, it handles collision, which will update Sonic's angle value.

So, with that, let's break down how the jump occurs. It starts on the frame that Sonic moves from the 0xF0 block to the 0xF8 block. First jumping will be detected. For this frame, Sonic should not jump, so it continues on. It'll then calculate Sonic's X and Y velocity based on his ground speed and his angle, which is starting off at 0xF0. The new velocity values will then be added to his position, and in this case, he will be shifted over to the 0xF8 block, where the collision detection will pick up on and set his angle to 0xF8.

Now, let's go to the next frame. This is the frame that Sonic should jump on. Because of that, it'll jump and then stop updating for that frame. If you were keen, you would have noticed that the X and Y velocities are still based on the 0xF0 angle. It never got updated because the jump action prevented it from doing so.

The way Sonic's jump trajectory is calculated is that it takes whatever velocity he already has, and add the angled jump speed. In this case, we're starting off with the more upward-right trajectory established from the 0xF0 block. The jump trajectory is calculated from Sonic's current angle value, which has been set to 0xF8 in the last frame. Since that is a more flat angle, Sonic's jump trajectory will be more straight upwards, so it'll only just barely work against the established horizontal speed, while being boosted even further upwards than normal.

The remake actually fixes this by updating the X and Y velocities before checking for jumping, and thus making this jump impossible without modding.
Click to expand...

I made a visualization/explanation of this in video form.

muteKi · Aug 15, 2023

Devon said:

Sonic 3 and Sonic & Knuckles features a few sprites that use the prototype Sonic 1 palette that was found in digitizer files, alongside appearing in a few other games (Sonic CD, Sonic Crackers, and Sonic Eraser). This is probably because one of the sprites is a slightly touched up Sonic 1 sprite, so they most likely inherited the palette from there for the other sprites.

Click to expand...

You know, when you put these all together like this, it's slightly disappointing that they couldn't flip the S3 ending sprite and use it as a transition pose between the re-used Sonic 1 sprite and the final S&K one. I mean, I get why it made sense not to do that, but it's still disappointing.

Palas · Aug 15, 2023

Devon said:

Devon said:

So, in the classic games, did you know that if you jump on the exact frame Sonic steps on a flatter surface after running up a slope, you can achieve a higher jump than what was intended?

Let's take this section from Collision Chaos Act 3

Under normal circumstances, that jump should not be possible. So, how is it?

Let's deconstruct the 2 blocks involved

The left block has an angle of 0xF0, which translates to 22.5 degrees. The right block has an angle of 0xF8, which translates to 11.25 degrees. Normally, the left block would allow you to jump that high, but not that quickly horizontally, and the right block would do the opposite.

What allows you to do that jump has to do with how Sonic updates his speed on the ground and when he checks for jumping. Each frame, the first thing it does is check if Sonic should jump. If he should, it exits out of the update routine completely. The next major step involved in this is that Sonic's X and Y velocity get calculated from his ground speed and angle, and then that is added to Sonic's position. Towards the end, it handles collision, which will update Sonic's angle value.

So, with that, let's break down how the jump occurs. It starts on the frame that Sonic moves from the 0xF0 block to the 0xF8 block. First jumping will be detected. For this frame, Sonic should not jump, so it continues on. It'll then calculate Sonic's X and Y velocity based on his ground speed and his angle, which is starting off at 0xF0. The new velocity values will then be added to his position, and in this case, he will be shifted over to the 0xF8 block, where the collision detection will pick up on and set his angle to 0xF8.

Now, let's go to the next frame. This is the frame that Sonic should jump on. Because of that, it'll jump and then stop updating for that frame. If you were keen, you would have noticed that the X and Y velocities are still based on the 0xF0 angle. It never got updated because the jump action prevented it from doing so.

The way Sonic's jump trajectory is calculated is that it takes whatever velocity he already has, and add the angled jump speed. In this case, we're starting off with the more upward-right trajectory established from the 0xF0 block. The jump trajectory is calculated from Sonic's current angle value, which has been set to 0xF8 in the last frame. Since that is a more flat angle, Sonic's jump trajectory will be more straight upwards, so it'll only just barely work against the established horizontal speed, while being boosted even further upwards than normal.

The remake actually fixes this by updating the X and Y velocities before checking for jumping, and thus making this jump impossible without modding.
Click to expand...

I made a visualization/explanation of this in video form.

Click to expand...

I'm pretty aure there are at least a few Sonic CD stage speedruns and time attack world recordd that used jumps like these and I could never pull them off or even understand what was going on. This is so great to see!

Childish · Aug 15, 2023

That glitch was the only way I could beat metalic madness back in the day lol there's an area where you can get atop the entire level and walk to the end nice to know why it exists

JaxTH · Aug 17, 2023

I've been sitting on this since last August and finally remembered it, have fun.

https://info.sonicretro.org/File:Rise_of_Lyric_BRB_Style_Guide.pdf

It's the "Sonic Synergy" style guide, which was the name of Sonic Boom: Rise of Lyric before the name change.

GoldeMan · Aug 17, 2023

JaxTH said:

I've been sitting on this since last August and finally remembered it, have fun.

https://info.sonicretro.org/File:Rise_of_Lyric_BRB_Style_Guide.pdf

It's the "Sonic Synergy" style guide, which was the name of Sonic Boom: Rise of Lyric before the name change.
Click to expand...

I love the 2D Concept art of the Boom expressions, they'd look fantastic in a 2D Cartoon styled game or in animation. They look okay in 3D but the concept art of Tails' expressions really stand out more.

Crimson Neo · Aug 17, 2023

To be fair, I think it's impressive how expressive the characters look in in-game cutscenes, something none of 2010's Sonic Team games managed to do.

Blue Spikeball · Aug 17, 2023

I can see where you people are coming from with the faces being more expressive, but honestly? I've always hated that exaggerated uni eye look on Sonic.

Antheraea · Aug 17, 2023

Blue Spikeball said:

I can see where you people are coming from with the faces being more expressive, but honestly? I've always hated that exaggerated uni eye look on Sonic.
Click to expand...

yeah I absolutely hate his face.

Sara · Aug 17, 2023

Wow, those arm designs on the earliest Boom Sonics...

Dark Sonic · Aug 17, 2023

Blue Spikeball said:

I can see where you people are coming from with the faces being more expressive, but honestly? I've always hated that exaggerated uni eye look on Sonic.
Click to expand...

Bottom right looks like sex eyes lol

also love how they actually tried to redesign Metal Sonic, but in the end they basically said “fuck it keep him 99.9% the same”

The Joebro64 · Aug 18, 2023

Courtesy of MainMemory, we now know if the Advance 2 Bitch Slap of Death is intentional or not!

it is. Fuck you.

LordOfSquad · Aug 18, 2023

lmao what the fuck were they thinking? I do feel slightly more at peace knowing that though

McAleeCh · Aug 18, 2023

So Naoto Ohshima has tweeted a photo of his original storyboards for the Sonic CD opening animation, which were then passed on to Studio Junio to turn into a full-fledged animation. Some interesting little differences visible, e.g. the sequence where Sonic spins through falling rocks in the finished version appears to be him just blasting through the tops of jagged rock formations here. Looks like the animation staff embellished some bits to add some more dynamism where required.

Also of note, if the papers are anything to go by, the game's dev team was being referred to as "Sonic the Hedgehog Team" internally at the point these storyboards were made, complete with a natty logo I don't believe we've seen before.

MainMemory · Aug 18, 2023

It could also be a stylized "CD", making it the "CD Sonic the Hedgehog Team".

Overlord · Aug 19, 2023

The Joebro64 said:

Courtesy of MainMemory, we now know if the Advance 2 Bitch Slap of Death is intentional or not!

it is. Fuck you.

Click to expand...

Utterly insane. That boss breaks several core 2D Sonic gameplay rules for no reason other than to piss the player off. God I hate everything about that zone.

Black Squirrel · Aug 25, 2023

I've been sort-of hunting for 1980s and 1990s Sega merchandise - the sort that's even less documented than usual. Along the way I made some Sonic pages:

Merchandise/DSI
Merchandise/Spectra Merchandising International
Merchandise/Tomy

I'm unlikely to go hunting for "scans" or photos though, so uh... fill in the gaps.

There's always plenty on ebay. Pretty much everything listed is missing from Sonic Retro. It's also an opportunity to admire how far we've come - in the early 90s, they'd just slap Sonic's face on a pre-existing mould and call it a day. Now you get action figures of Mighty the Armadillo.

That's the best 1992 could offer.

Only for viewing · Aug 26, 2023

hey, folks. I vaguely remember hearing that the infamous claim of yuji naka being pissed at the developers of sonic xtreme for asking/using the engine written for nights was false, with one piece of evidence being the fact said engine was coded in assembly. anyone know if this is echoed in a post or something?

The Supreme Topic of 'Other' Knowledge.

Useful Searches