I'm not sure if I'd call Naganuma's work "ideal Sonic music" but it is "ideal SEGA music". Something about it just screams weird, edgy counterculture, in a good way.
SA2 is just kind of mid to me. It's not outright bad but I think even calling it good is a bit generous. The main problem I have with it is that it feels like a regression from SA1 in a lot of ways: I definitely prefer how Sonic feels in SA1 to how he and Shadow feel in SA2. He feels a lot less rigid and the homing attack is more reliable. The shooter mechs control like garbage compared to Gamma. They fucked up the emerald-collecting stages by nerfing the radar and not adding more shards to compensate for the levels being twice as large. The story has more plot holes than a piece of cheese and I think it lacks the charm of SA1's. SA1 has high stakes but doesn't take itself too seriously; it's aware that at the end of the day, it's a story about cartoon animals fighting a fat mad scientist who makes robots powered by birds and pigs. For a story that takes itself seriously, SA2 sucks. It's trying to be some higher form of art that it's not. The soundtrack is good but I don't think it's as good as SA1's. I don't give a shit about Chao. Never have and never will. I know a lot of this is because the game was produced by a skeleton crew that had the lowest budget for any Sonic game period, and I do think it's somewhat of a miracle SA2 is even as good as it is given the circumstances under which it was created. But I just... can't bring myself to love it. Believe me, I've tried, and I just can't. I really don't see the masterpiece others do.
I generally prefer the aesthetic and control from the first Sonic Adventure, but I can't really lie and say I don't have a soft spot for Adventure 2. I grew up with it, fucking sue me, excuse me for having a childhood. Overall, I'd say SA2 has better production values in voice acting and cutscene direction, and a bit more of an ambitious story (For better or worse) and every character having their own dedicated levels lets them better show off their abilities as opposed to just getting Sonic's leftovers. But the first Sonic Adventure does genuinely feel like an actual 3D Classic game moreso than any game that came afterwards and there's far less recycling of assets than in Adventure 2. I know WHY Sa2 recycles assets, but it doesn't really change that it does.
My only real problems with Sonic Adventure 2 are the previously mentioned radar nerf, and the fact that while playing as a shooter mech the attack button has two functions instead of one (aim laser, but at the same time also shoot an energy bullet) which will screw up your game plan.
I don't understand what you mean by the controls, but the story is great, they just didn't tell it in game and cut all the important scenes because they had no time to put them in. Mainly everything having to do with The President. He's like half of what kicks off this entire story, and Rouge's whole reason for existing, and we only randomly see him in the middle of the game before he's never seen from again even though he would represent the whole "Hero vs Dark" theme of the entire game. All of this is restored in Sonic X, but nobody wants to watch Sonic X and everyone turned SA2 into a meme with the shitty real time fandub and knows nothing else about the story, so nobody fucking gets the story. I don't really get how anyone can prefer Gamma over the mechs. He feels like he's sliding on cheese (I have no idea what that means but it's what came to mind.) and floating on strings. Eveything you do with the mechs, on the other hand, feels deliberate and intentional. For how SA2 is structured in terms of its ranks, making only one treasure detectable is necessary, otherwise all 3 pieces would be counting down in terms of score and getting an A rank would be TOTAL RNG instead of testing your knowledge of the stages. (and time being the only determining factor would be boring and redundant for mission 4s.) There's actually a mod that restores unused emerald locations, but honestly, having more then makes it even harder to learn the stages. and that's what all 3 styles are focused around, knowing all the shortcuts as Sonic and Shadow, knowing where to find everything as Knuckles and Rouge, and knowing all the enemies and objects to blow up to keep your combos and health up as Eggman and Tails. Also stories with ridiculous premises that take themselves seriously are the best ones. This is objective fact.
I personally still consider Sonic Adventure 2 a good game, but I agree with everything you said. Like, I kinda have a soft spot for the game, but I honestly doesn't like it as the same I love the first Sonic Adventure. So yes, despite some of the flaws, I still think Sonic Adventure 1 is a better game.
My opinion on SA1 vs. SA2 changes day by day. It’s really a matter of quantity vs quality for me, with both games excelling in both but in different spots. SA1 has more characters, but SA2 fleshed them out. Then SA2 has these fleshed out gameplay styles, but they don’t control as well. Etc. etc. SA1 is the first game I remember being hyped for. Like we got the Hollywood Video rental Dreamcast and all that. I was not even 5 when it came out but I have vivid memories of the game. It felt and still feels right as a follow up to S3K. I have pretty much the same story with 2. I would have been 6/7, and I remember my dad asking to play Shuffle which threw me off because I knew he hated it. I turned on the Dreamcast and it booted up to SA2. Being the age I was when both these games released, it’s impossible for me to separate these memories from the actual quality of the games. Each are more than just games to me, and always will be. So I fully understand the problems with each, they just don’t bother me. And I totally get Overlord’s problems with SA2, but I think it felt like a natural extension of SA1 to me at the time so it still doesn’t bother me. Edit: Oh, let me add another unpopular opinion… Big is easy? Idk, I see people complain they can’t catch stuff and I think they don’t realize you have to press down on the stick.
I don't like Big's gameplay, but his presence in the game stills adds a lot to me (yes, I like Big the Cat).
Sonic Adventure 2 is probably, still to this day, my favourite 3D entry. I definitely see why people might dislike it tho; it...does thing its own way, and that either make or break the game for you. The game reminds me a lot of Sonic CD in a weird way: it's fucking out there, and some people like the game because of that, and some...don't, lol I don't like CD, so I definitely know what it feels like to be "on the other side", so to speak. But I get why people love it and hail it as the best 2D entry, and that's why I'll keep loving and defending SA2 until my dying breath :p
I think the era of people claiming CD is the best is over. I remember hearing that opinion a lot in the early-mid 2000s, but the rerelease in 2011 made the game accessible enough that more than the hardcore fans could play and the general perception switched from, “Hidden classic barely anyone played,” to, “Wtf is this level design?” I personally wouldn’t put it above 3K but I think I’d have it on par with 2 purely because of how stylish and unique it looks.
I personally wouldn't put it above 3K, or 2...or 1, lol But still, I see the love for this game and I see were people come from when they really really like it :p Although its reputation definitely took a dive over the years, you're right.
I ended up liking CD when I played it last, but I kinda had to turn the "this doesn't play much like Sonic" part of my brain off. Whether that's a good or bad thing...
Here's an unpopular opinion: SA2's gimped Emerald Radar, while questionable as a design decision, isn't that big of a deal.
For me, it depends on the level. Smaller levels, like Wild Canyon, don't make the radar an issue. And it's easy to see why they nerfed the radar after SA1's levels could be trivialised by having the radar confidentially detect everything at once. It eliminated the need to explore, so the new radar is fix for that (but not an idea one). Larger levels, like Pumpkin Hill and Meteor Herd, arguably aren't a problem because they're so wide and open that it's neither difficult nor unreasonable to do a sweep of the entire stage. But it really does become an issue when the levels are labyrinthine and confined or enormous without offering much freedom, preventing you from making general sweeps of the environment. Death Chamber and Mad Space are the worst offenders, and Aquatic Mine is no slouch in the "anti-fun" department either.
My opinions about the Adventure games have mellowed out to the point where I consider both about equal. Sonic Adventure's tone is more my jam as a classic Sonic fan. The worldbuilding changes risk causing some disruption but switching between a bustling vacation town, melancholic ruins and the essentric Egg Carrier manage to make the game feel familiar without feeling derivative. These are all classic "Sonic" tropes, just grounded a bit and fleshed out. It's an inviting world to explore even if I don't think that exploration is always fruitful The controls feel good having some freedom to pull off your own stunts still puts this game head and shoulders over the rest of the series in terms of mechanics. The obvious complaint is that the game is a really mixed bag outside of Sonic's story. I think Sonic himself is overtuned for his levels but Tails and Knuckles take it way over the line and make their stories a genuine bore where you just glide over the level with their mobility. Amy and Gamma feel a lot more thoughtful in their approach but some lack of polish stops them from reaching their true potential. Either way though if you're coming off of Sonic 3 a lot of this stuff just isn't what you're here to do so I question it's inclusion. Normally franchises don't get this experimental until after a couple of games of normalcy. It feels like we missed a game between Sonic 3 and this. One thing I've become mixed on over the years is the hub worlds. I think they add a lot to the game's story, but not so much to it's gameplay. There's barely any secrets to find, no opportunities for non-linear progression, and barely any character exclusive areas which makes getting around it later on in the game kind of a boring chore. It's not bad, but there's a lot of opportunities missed that I wish they capitalized on here. Small discoveries like Eggman's command deck and Hedgehog Hammer should have been placed all over the world just to reward players with more worldbuilding. While it introduced a bunch of regrettable ideas it doesn't go so far into them that it dilutes the essence of what Sonic is the same way SA2 onward does. SA1 is closer to what I would want from a Sonic game but SA2 is more immediately enjoyable in every sense. It throws you right into the action and the pace keeps chugging on like an arcade game, which I consider more 'Sonic' than hub worlds and fishing minigames. This is a hot take but I also think the treasure hunting stages are just a straight improvement unless you're mad they take longer. It sucks if you want to get it over with but they actually tried to grapple with how Knuckles moves and design levels around it so I appreciate that over SA1's friction-less approach. There's been some griping about the tone of it and while I agree it doesn't really match what came before I don't mind it as a "Resident Evil 4" style mutation. It's genuinely cool to see the characters dabble in extreme sports, flip off the cops and keep their cool in high stress situations. Rouge and Shadow are genuinely good new additions to the cast too. Rouge is a great foil to Knuckles, and whileimo Shadow doesn't quite stick the landing I like watching his rivalry with Sonic. He didn't get equals to scrap with often before this point. It's also got a multiplayer mode that's like half the reason it's so fondly remembered, at least in my family. I just don't have the memories I have with my brother and sister with SA1 the way I do with 2. Sonic games were better to me when they had some way to pull the person sitting next to you on the couch into the experience and nobody did it better than SA2 for me. On the flipside though I think the shooting takes a big hit when you remove the timer. Gamma's controls were already a hard sell for me so failing to address that while taking stuff away makes this one feel like a downgrade, as much as I appreciate the exclusive level design. While I generally praise the story, yeah, it's full of holes and ;eans hard on sheer momentum, something that risks falling apart with the slow paced, plodding levels on the main path. The biggest problem is the more rigid gameplay structure. Sonic games always gave you the tools to do cool things, and heavily encouraged you to do cool things, but SA2 was the first time I really felt like I didn't have that many options in a level outside of the setpieces the designers intended. It manages to still feel like a skillful game because there are a lot of little ways for you to optimize your runs, but i would like to have that without trading in the freedom that first game allowed for. To me, Sonic 2-SA1 all have places that reward ingenuity while SA2 focuses on refinement. It's still a fun game but it's fun despite being a misstep. I guess my actual hot take is something I hinted at earlier: Did these have to be the first 3D Sonic games? I could see a Sonic game where Tails grows his confidence, one where Knuckles grapples with the echidna's past and one where Amy gains some independence, all underlined with some big mechanical twist to push that story along. The difference is in the classic era I would never imagine all three ideas fighting for the attention in the same game like they do in SA1. It just feels like it would be a much more polished game with some kind of focal point, and 'they all fight chaos' doesn't seem like enough of one. SA2 feels a bit less scatterbrained in this regard but it still feels like it's biting off more than it can chew with 6 playable characters and at least 4 completely unique maps for each, usually more. I just feel like a more "traditional" 3D Sonic games should have been made first, with these subversive ideas being saved for sequels once a general gameplay structure was figured out. I get that the pressure was on in the Dreamcast era. There wasn't a lot of confidence there would even be a next Sonic game so you're tempted to put it all on the table, but even after that it feels like they barely took any time to stop and try making something simple. It only really happened with Colors, and that was a full decade after SA2.
SA2 really does kinda fall into the same situation as CD, they both seemed like great games until I actually played them... Anyways my big issue with SA2 will always be the game forcing you into playing the treasure hunting and shooting levels to progress. I don't have a problem with games trying to spice things up with alternate gameplay styles, but its a really really really hard sell having 2/3rds of the game made up of something that feels half-assed when I just want the 1/3rd that's in line with what I expect from the series. Of course SA2 isnt the only game guilty of this, but it feels the most egregious about it, since at least some have a few redeeming qualities in the unwanted gameplay styles that I can squeeze some fun out of.
I'd think Sonic CD was accessible enough with the release of Sonic Gems Collection alongside all the other classic Sonic game compilations.
Ever since I found out about it, I like to bring up Iizuka's interview about SA2 when it was launched to point out how intentional was the shift towards a more controlled experience, based on -- like you said -- the refinement of the execution of an intended action sequence. The "tempo" for the action, as well as the idea of "giving Sonic more actions", indicate less possible interactions, thus rewarding execution rather than ingenuity. So I understand SA2 as the game that opened the chasm in gameplay philosophies in Sonic, much more than SA1, even though the latter was the one that inaugurated the transition to 3D once and for all and introduced all those different gameplay styles. In tune with this sentiment, I should say as an unpopular opinion that the decision to include many gameplay styles in SA1 is a virtue, not a problem. There might have been another way to organize them, but other than that I'm really fond of how you see and feel many aspects of Sonic's world in a single game, in a way that the classics could have never done. It helps telling the story of an ancient, mystical being that threatens everyone, even the villain, better than (say) Unleashed's boost approach. Because the world is not entirely made for Sonic, but everyone has their way to navigate it and the approaches complete each other, the world feels more whole. I like it.
It's a game I ultimately like as well and a lot of it's quirks are why. I just wonder if it could have taken a more confident swing with a better foothold, but designers rarely get ideal circumstances to work with. Maybe I should just commend them for making a game I still find fun to play.
I can't help but feel a lot of premises are being snuck in into the statement here, likelt unknowingly due to it just being taken for granted so much. For instance, the idea that curling into a ball was a baseline concept fir the game at all. To my understanding and research, that whole deal came well after even the idea of the general level design, and was in large part donecas a remedy for an insistence on Naka's part in wanting to maintain a game with a single button schema. I'm not convinced that these things were the baseline fundemental premises around which the concept if the game was built, or that it is even reflected in the game ir its sequels as the design goal of the game, so much as it is an extention/extrapolstion of elements they ended up creating. You'll have to pardon me for nit having dug through every past post. It's been a while so if this was at all stated by you before, I probably missed it or forgot. TL;DR, No i dont think the idea of Sonic 1 was to make a game about rolling ibto a ball and manipulating momentum, and from what I can gather, it doesn't seem to have been the core idea (as ice described the therm) around which the game was designed, so much as a cool thing that was supplimented in the gave due to the existing mechanics and concepts. Hopefully that is a bit more clear.
