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Zone 01 : "The Mandatory Green Level"

Discussion in 'Project: Sonic Retro (Archive)' started by Retro_Stew, Nov 9, 2008.

  1. roxahris

    roxahris

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    Personally, I think we should take a look at other Sonic games.
    [​IMG][​IMG]
    As you can see, these are fairly simple; geometric patterns. The colours are simple, bright and dark, with grass on top. I'm not very good at explaining things, but...
    [​IMG]
    As you can see, this looks a lot more like Sonic 1/Sonic CD style. In comparison, however, the grass looks overly detailed. (Also, I couldn't find a clear picture of the older design, so I used the detailed one, so it doesn't look that similar.)
    [​IMG]
    Really, the grass looks more like this. Rather detailed, not to mention the random yellow lines.
    [​IMG]
    Mushroom Hill is a more simplistic style. While it's not as simple as Sonic 1/CD, it looks very close to what Rika was doing originally.
    [​IMG]
    This is very detailed. It actually doesn't seem to match the rest. In fact...
    [​IMG]
    It looks closer to Neo Green Hill Zone's ground. Much closer. There's a larger amount of detail then in the rest.(Beta picture used because the one used for the normal picture is just sand. Argh!)
    [​IMG][​IMG]
    However, it looks nothing like the designs in the other Sonic Advance games.
    [​IMG][​IMG]
    These two don't go with either. They're a group of rectangular shapes joined together. (Hill Top Zone image used because the Emerald Hill Zone one is just the corkscrew loop. Double the argh, double the annoyance!)
     
  2. Tweaker

    Tweaker

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    Didn't I just say that our goal here is establish a new style, and not just mindlessly copy existing ones based on artificially-imposed limitations?

    Jesus, it's like I'm talking to a fucking wall here. Why am I even trying anymore?

    We don't need a poll—we need some actual leadership. Not one single person on the team of "coordinators" right now is qualified for that position. It's extremely irritating.
     
  3. Retro_Stew

    Retro_Stew

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    It's a community project, isn't it? A poll is the best solution so far.
     
  4. PC2

    PC2

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    Various Artwork & Music, :smug:
    Actually, now that I see the images layed out like that in direct comparison with S3K, the current art seems to fit even more. Reminds me of something just inbetween S3K and Chaotix, really.

    =P

    This would probably be an awfully better time to see some concepts thrown around so we can end up with something we can all agree on. I don't have much time now, but maybe I'll try working on it later today. As a community project, the whole idea here is to work on the project as a community, and it seems that's the only way we're going to get past these disagreements.

    Also, not to upset anyone, but I don't think we should wait this long to decide we don't like something. =\
     
  5. roxahris

    roxahris

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    Did I say we should COPY existing styles? I was merely pointing out the similarities. If you want to make a new style, you have to take the old styles apart, and try to get something original out of it, in my opinion.
     
  6. Mobiethian

    Mobiethian

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    I'm not up for arguing... I don't think this is the place for that so I'm dropping it now. And I'm involved just as much, don't go there. :(

    The leadership is fine... and what do you mean by "qualified"??

    Can we do some actual work now?? ;)
     
  7. Matwek

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    I pretty much agree with this. At the moment its almost as if people are trying to decide on one design over the other when we should really have as many different styles as possible.
    Anyone who has the time should come up with a variation (even if you're not that good) just to detract from the idea that we only have 2 options.
     
  8. Rokkan

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    I hope so, because I have a friend that when he cannot counter-argue anymore he just changes the subject radically and cannot accept when he actually agrees with the counter-argument, it makes me rage so much.

    @Matwek (too lazy to quote): And OK, I'll try doing a variation, even though I think this style is almost perfect.
    EDIT: Jesus I can't do it, for me it's plain perfect, I can, however, make the octagonal blocks have a more sonic-esque shading.
     
  9. Something everybody agrees on?

    This is the internet. That will never happen, I'm afraid.
     
  10. Tweaker

    Tweaker

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    The holocaust is fine... and what do you mean by "genocide"??

    Saying the leadership is fine does not make it fine. There is a severe, distinct lack of any solid leadership with any sort of direction on this project right now. You're going around selectively quoting, Phoebius is busy/faux-resigned, Qjimbo does jack shit and I haven't heard a thing from Jay in a few days. This project needs an active, involved team of coordinators, and it needs it fast if it's going to go anywhere.

    I thought the moderators chosen for this subforum before were going to be sufficient, but apparently I've been proven wrong. Why can't we have somebody like Vincent coorindate? :(

    Comments like these serve to be nothing more than counter-productive. If you're not going to say anything particularly helpful, then please don't. Your general pessimism is far from needed right now.
     
  11. Why can't we have somebody like Tweaker co-ordinate? :(

    Honestly, you would by far be the best choice for a co-ordinator, since you're active, a prominet member of the forums, you know shit about where the direction should be heading and you've proven to be able to take charge countless times.

    But I imagine after Megamix fell apart you aren't ready to step back into your co-ordination boots again.
     
  12. Matwek

    Matwek

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    As far as contributions and opinions on other peoples work im not sure if I've seen anything 'leader like' being done. I mean you are obviously interested in the project and so far what I've seen you post have been benificial to whats going on but it takes more than just having the deciding vote on things to make a decent project leader.

    People are willing and ready to help but they have no guideline to work from, make a plan.
    Are we focusing on this first level? Tile sets, Objects, Badniks etc all in one go?
    Are we just getting the basic Tile set degined for each level theme done before anything else?
    And with the whole Tropical Zone debate, there should be some sort of organisation to the replys and objections. Why not get in touch with some of the better pixel artists, convince them to come up with several changes or alterations on their first designs, open the doors to all kinds of alterations from the community so we have a range to pick from, and most importantly keep a copy of everything so its easy to refer back too.

    A lot of talk has gone into doing research before comming up with anything and I totally agree with that (as anyone whos studied any topic on a higher level would), but thats more the concern of the individual artist. What we need is direction as to what we should be doing research on.

    This isn't ment to be seen as an insult more of an indication of what is expected of someone whos in charge and im sure people will be more than happy to work out a plan of action with you, to get things back on track.
     
  13. Retro_Stew

    Retro_Stew

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    But I said I wasn't a leader anymore! I asked to have my moderator abilities removed :S
     
  14. muteKi

    muteKi

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    Right. It would be at least a good idea to look at what has been done before so that we can see what works and what doesn't. Just because we don't want it to be too much of a carbon copy of the previous games doesn't mean we shouldn't do some analysis of their styles.
     
  15. Rokkan

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    Seriously, the Rika design is just too alike GHZ's tiles and AIZ's grass. Even Palmtree Panic is a lot more different than GHZ than this. That's why I prefer the newest one. Because it gives the impression of the generic tropical first level but still is beautiful and does not remember so much GHZ at a first glance.
     
  16. STHX

    STHX

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    I would like to say something about the tipical first Zone:

    We all know that most Sonic games start with a Green Hill-escue Zone, which usually appear like an island (or at least the background features a sea and little mountain-like island), so it's not surprising that this game must start with a tropical Zone. Lately a discussion over a "detailed" pattern arised, and I noticed something regarding this in the classic games.

    First, let's start with Sonic The Hedgehog:

    [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]

    Someone already posted images of other tropical zones and the increase in detail that the tropical zone had from game to game, but there is another thing that should be noticed: The basic details of the foreground become more detailed as Sonic moves from a zone to another.

    In sonic 1 we start with GHZ: The foreground is pretty simple (a square pattern repeated with the only difference being some hollow sections here and there), and the grass is not very detailed. It's pretty flat in the end.
    Then we have MZ: The grass remains mostly the same, but the foregruond start to show some more details (the blocks no longer feel flat, and the little pixels make them look more rough)
    After this we have SYZ: This is the first Zone which do not repeat a set pattern in the foreground (differently from the previous zones, even if it follow a specific style, it shows more variety, and it look even less flat)
    Here we have LZ: Again, Labirynth keep with the tradition of the non repetitive foreground, even if it still seems a little more bland than SYZ (but it still have some variety. Think of the bird faces encased in the stones).
    Now my favorite, SLZ: This is the first Zone were the foregruond is not everywere, but again the stage look more solid and less flat than the other ones.
    And, finally, SBZ: In this Zone the increase in detail is very noticeable, and the foreground become much more detailed (differently colored and shaped pipes, black and yellow lines. Many thing help to make this Zone to look more detailed)

    But what was the point of this? May seems weird, but usually the first Zone is less detailed than the following ones (there also seems to be an increase in details from a zone to another. Maybe the reason is because the first Zone should be the more natural one, and so, the most simple), and this thing can be said even for the other games:

    In Sonic 2:

    [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]

    I don't want to keep it too long, so I won't describe each Zone, but again EHZ seems to be the less deatiled Zone of all the levels (I took out SCZ because it doesn't have a foreground at all)

    In Sonic CD:

    [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]

    Again PPZ looks the less detailed one and the more flat one.

    I won't post more images (these are to much for one post, considering I took'em from the wiki), but a similar thing can be said even for Chaotix (if Isolated Island is considered the first zone) and S3K (all right, this is exact only if we divide the 2 games, and even if we do this AIZ remains the most detailed tropical level of all).

    I said this because I'm not too sure if the first zone must really be so detailed. It's true, if we keep with the style of S3K the detail is needed, however the style that was discussed doesn't seems to keep along with the true style of the tropical zone. And as you saw in this post, the zones become more detailed as Sonic progresses through the game.


    Also, even if the tropical levels are fairly similar, there is still a maior difference with AIZ (it's the only zone which doesn't have sea in the background. Is the only one which has a true tropical Jungle feel. Generally, it has many differences from Green Hill and the other ones, which instead have many things in common).Our tropical Zone, intentionally or not, is more similar to Green Hill (and EH, PP, and so on) than to Angel Island, so, if it was for me, I would like to keep with a more simple style, at least as an omage to Green Hill-escue tropical Zone.


    In little:
    Flatness may not be something negative for the first Zone.
    A lot of details may not be something positive for the first Zone.
     
  17. Tweaker

    Tweaker

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    There doesn't appear to be any significant increase in detail amongst Zones at all—just changes in style. Just because a tropical zone traditionally does not have much detail does not mean it can't.

    You've conveniently left out Angel Island Zone in your comparisons, in which the level is extremely detailed—perhaps moreso than a lot of levels in the game.
     
  18. I'm all for more detail in the first level, and in the game in general. Think about it... Sega would naturally want to "out-do" the graphics of the last game. (In this case, S3&K; Angel Island Zone.)
     
  19. muteKi

    muteKi

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    Right. It may not be the most complex graphics of the game, but between GHZ -> EHZ -> AIZ -> Isolated Island they used more colors and more detailed or complex tiles for the ground. That's not to say that all the levels after it have to maintain a higher graphical complexity. Consider Mushroom Hill Zone, which is has a simpler pattern than AIZ.
     
  20. Rokkan

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    I guess we won :(
    But seriously, what is missing about the graphics on this level? What gimmicks and level structure needs to be pixelized yet?