Yet Another Fucking Hoax?

Discussion in 'General Sonic Discussion' started by Quickman, Nov 9, 2006.

  1. Kampfer

    Kampfer

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    Good to see Quickman is still the optimist around here :P .

    But yeah this topic is very much needed becase fakes are (realitvly) easy to create with a good knoledge of the program code.

    Wern't any of you here when Rika made that alt and faked the Sonic 1 Beta? That was a wakeup call to not accept anythign for what it appeared.
     
  2. M.C.

    M.C.

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    Yeah. "Sonic one betaa?"

    Good times though.
     
  3. Oni Link

    Oni Link

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    Face it its not a fake some people may believe its a fake.
    But who in the sense of mind would bother to create a fake and work on it this much and rip people off.
     
  4. clibinarius

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    I think the best evidence against this being a hoax is to look at Simon Wai's Beta and then compare it via the automated demos. If one notices, the automated demos are very glitched in Wai's but are not glitched at all in here: In fact, it appears Sonic attempts to follow the original layout in Wai's Beta and that messes it up-such as jumps and what not. Remember, Tails DIES in the Demo of the 2P Layout of Emerald Hill Zone. That's right, he DIES. This to me doesn't seem to make much sense. Also, if the view the HPZ demo, Sonic's movements are the exact same in both demos, and if you look at the Hill Top Demo, Sonic's movements work flawlessly again-and Tails doesn't lose his rings. Similarly, if you look at chemical plant, Sonic mimics his movements from the new beta, and messes up from it.

    Now, we have a Beta that messes up its demos based on new level designs, and movements that work perfectly. We have our pre-Beta stills with the green balls on the thing in Hill Top, which highlights a section that's in the same place in this prototype. It should be of note that Sonic mess up here perceisely in Wai's.

    Note: I just noticed there are glitches in Sonic's handling of Emerald Hill Zone's last movements in the Nick Arcade build. I would like to stress he gets over the objects, unlike in the Wai Beta, where that would've been unlikely at best. There might have been another mapping change here, though...

    Furthermore, I believe as last evidence is the placement of Hidden Palace in this game: We have had no evidence up until now of just how early Hidden Palace was in this game, and how much it was worked on again. We now have this information beyond a doubt. Also, I don't think we had any hardcore evidence Hill Top Zone was as far along as it was.

    And it also confirmed a suspecion I've had for years; Hidden Palace Zone in this form was nothing more than a test map for the new collision system. Note the straightforwardness (there's pretty much only one way to get around) and how everything is conviently blocked up where one might progress forward by a large emerald stuffing a pipe or no lift despite data for many objects in the level. Also, there's water and the only level with it at this point. Seems like a test map to me...kind of like Bunker 1 from Goldeneye 007: This was the default test map in that game, and was horribly incomplete and never really finished: Places unfinished in the map were simply blocked off via construction.

    Could it be a hack? Yes. But I find it hard to believe someone would find it so necessary to hack the ROM to this extent where the demos suddenly would make sense and be consistant with Nick Arcade. Unless they wanted to be very convincing. It contradicts no known data, and explains things that we have seen but had no clue what they were (Sonic's bouncing sprites). In other words, there's too much here. Also it should be of note that Chemical Plant soon dies off after its demo point in terms of, well, everything except background and SOME collision data. Zones 2 in Hilltop and Chemical Plant have no objects. In other words, it seems like these boards were programmed in explicitly for a demo. There's way too much unnecessary work here involved and a lot less would convince. I in fact give more credibility to this being real than Simon Wai's, as there's no indication of piracy as far as I can find on it. And if I recall, Andre Dirk seemed to have a copy of the cart himself corraborating Wai's.

    Oh yeah, about the piracy thing on Wai's (Suppressed Sega Logo): Don't give this too much thought. After looking through the programming of the new Sonic Prototype, I came up with a solution: Note, Copyright 1992 and the fact Sega appears at all (Crashing points similar) when playing the Beta in normal play. This was probably from a demo cartridge with multiple games, and was the source for more than one prototype. If this is the case, then it probably would be suppressed by Sega themselves, because it would've already showed up. Essentially the idea that pirates got to the ROM isn't outrageously consistant. That would also explain why default level select is active-ease of use to whoever is using it. It is sufficient to say I am suspecious if this is the infamous toy show cart at all. To my knowledge, Yuji Naka never stated whether or not Wai's Beta was the same cart. No one seems to know too much about the origins of that cart anyway for sure. I'll admit everything here is educated guesswork, but there's a lot of information that floats around these sites that annoys me in its naivity. I really think that people should be involved in other hacking projects, like I was when working on this stuff-Goldeneye in particular with the gameshark. I think a good chunk of people here are as well, which is a good thing-I remember Pelord from Goldeneye boards. And we had drama there, too (Destructo if I recall was a huge problem) that might've been just as bad of a problem than anything that happened politically here. My biggest fear is when money becomes involved, its more serious. When I got fed up, I just walked away. If I had made an investment, that would've not been so easy. In other words, remember guys, when money is involved, in particular large sums, you have to be more political. Sketicism is good, but so is discretion. Be smarter. $1500 is a lot of money that clearly you haven't spent. Someone spending $400 might take your criticism personally and not donate again.

    By the way, DRX: Thanks very much for this ROM.

    To skeptics to the origins of the U/D/D/D/D/U codes: This is why I believe simultaneously working on other games in other communities is important. It allows you to figure out resources that others might not know, and as far as codes go, it was only when someone discovered codes in the RAM states and published them to Goldeneye 007 did Rare release them. I stress very strongly that these could've been found by a clever hacker, or someone with a damned bible code program meant to read Sonic 2. If I recall, Cyan developped a program that could find strings of text long ago so its not inconceivable that the codes would've eventually been found using this method, if not found using this method.



    Who am I? I've been relatively inactive in the community since 1999. I will not list my accomplishments in the community and there were a few (and very significant ones) back then (I posted under a much different name); I'm arrogant but I don't feel I need to prove myself any more than this. Now, I'll see everyone if I for some reason feel like reading these or replying again in the next few weeks, before my interest is lost (I've seen too many flames on here to be on it that much longer, it pains me to see that this community is still not over its immaturity: Its a 15 year old game and its only the internet guys. Chill, there's nothing to take that seriously. Its a hobby, not a war). If I don't return (I'm a quitter), I'll post again when a topic worthy of my attention is found, such as a new Sonic 1, 2, 3 or K prototype is found. Or when I've seen flames stop; maybe then I'll actually resume attempting experiments on things again, or at least show my findings. This whole post was the only reason someone got my attention long enough to consider opening up an account and taking that easy test. It is a disgrace. Innocent until proven guilty. The burden of proof is on you to show its a fake, not on DRX to show its real. As far as I've seen, there's no proof that its fake. Seriously, this kind of stuff has driven away too many talented people, and too many geese laying golden eggs have been killed off. If DRX gets enough of this, you'll drive him away too, who has been more than kind to the sonic community after this stuff. I'm not saying don't question. I'm saying don't accuse. If you must question, try to not make it sound like a flame. And when a turd asks a question, don't bash them. Just because someone asks a "stupid" question doesn't mean they won't become an extremely talented hacker at some point. Even if you've done something that deserves respect doesn't mean you should bash people. Just because this is the appropriate place to be Comic Book Guy doesn't mean you should be Comic Book Guy, Capiche?
     
  5. Weird Person

    Weird Person

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    Who knows?
    Here I have to disagree with you. If Hidden Palace was just a test Zone, the programmers wouldn't bother in make HPZ the 3rd level showed* in the Demo screens. Players don't need to know about test zones.

    [*This apply to Simon Wai's Beta]
     
  6. Quickman

    Quickman

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    This is why I want this topic closed. I don't need every jackass who thinks he has a clue coming along and rehashing the same tired evidence.
     
  7. Qjimbo

    Qjimbo

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    This is true, though they just make themselves look bad and stops them creating a new topic.
     
  8. pianoman0391

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    How about this -- What the crazy trial member says goes.

    This is NOT a hoax.

    Aaand... lock.
     
  9. Quickman

    Quickman

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    How about this - get off that high horse of yours. You're a trial member, not anybody with an opinion worth considering without serious thought.

    The message clearly has not been drilled in everyone's heads enough yet.
    WE FUCKING KNOW IT'S NOT A HOAX
     
  10. clibinarius

    clibinarius

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    And this is why people have quit over the years and the community has almost no more people involved from 1999. We got Sonic 2 and Knuckles to work, not you. We did all the work allowing you to play those hacks you play. We were the ones who were around and did work on Sonic 2 Beta, not you. We were the ones that did level select placement, not you. Nearly everything important that's known about Sonic the Hedgehog's programming was known then-the "master emerald" was never that big of a deal aside from people who thought the Beta was important only because Hidden Palace Zone. Your contributions are nil.

    As far as I'm concerned, you're one of many non-contributing n00bs to any relevant goals who think they're important because they've been on a message board for a few months, maybe years, and can somehow bash people like you know what you're talking about-if you're stupid years ago, odd are you'll be stupid years from now unless you try hard (whereas there are a lot of non-contributing n00bs who wish they could contribute if they had the knowledge or the time, etc.; they are the good n00bs and you're not one of them). Not outrageously much new has come to the Sonic Community since Cyan left, with the exceptions of a few programs which were compiled by authors who by and large found the information years ago in terms of programming (hacks are by this point by and large an art form, but nothing new anymore in the game in themselves). DXM is one of the few people I've seen in the past few years on here genuinely interested in sacrificing a lot of time and resources to advance the knowledge of the community. If I recall, aside from Cyan, the other talented programmers from back then were Andy Wolan and Stealth and a possibly a few I'm forgetting. And as far as I can see, no one gives a dump about a bunch of people who were not even old enough to play these games when they came out. There's no indication that you've even tried as far as I could see to make matters even worse.

    Sorry. You lose. And if I look bad, I don't care. You're just in a long line of traditionalist xenophobes who contribute nothing relevant and think they're important because they post 4.5 times a day, post thousands of messages and contribute nothing worth the bandwidth. So you do something important such as producing a Beta, or a text editing program before all values are discovered, or finding an extra amount of data freeing up things to work, or find various flaws in memory dumps, or a hack worth playing like Knuckles in Sonic 1, or even a grossly flawed new hack that at least someone tried hard on to make playable and maybe even good. Once you do that, then you can bash me. I don't remember Ketsuban or XinuX doing anything relevant back then, either. And if I'm wrong and you have done something, I apologize.

    For god's sake, you joined in late <s>93</s> 03. Do you even know what SSRG stands for?
     
  11. Quickman

    Quickman

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    I was going to come up with some sort of reply to this, but your posts are so convoluted like you just spilled your brain into the post box that I can't even try and counter anything you say.
     
  12. clibinarius

    clibinarius

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    I'll agree to that. My posts are too long-I don't really care what I write so I write too much and in no coherent order. Should I write you up a summary then?
     
  13. Tweaker

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    What I'm getting at is that Quickman is a worthless punk who's arrogant and ignorant to what those before him in the community have done, and that treating his predecessors with such disrespect is only enforcing that claim, and showing that what he does doesn't matter, and that everything else has already been covered for so long, and that everybody else is lazy and doesn't do anything.

    While I see a moderate degree of truth in there, and get a general idea of what you're saying, I think you're way too arrogant yourself as to what happened in the past days of the community. Sure, things were great, and you guys set the stepping stones for where we are today, but in no way does that give you the right to waltz around like you're a god and expect people to bow to you when the general public hasn't the slightest clue as to who you are or what you've done, since you haven't made yourself known like a lot of the modern sceners have.

    By the way, you should post more. I like you. =P
     
  14. Quickman

    Quickman

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    I guess I should get it in here that I don't not like you at all - I just objected to being treated like I was pondscum because I'd made no discoveries "worth noting" or hacks "worth playing".

    I also agree with Tweaker in that I do see some truth in what you say.
     
  15. clibinarius

    clibinarius

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    I do not deny my arrogance. I didn't do nearly as much as I could've back then, either, aside from finding odd glitches and a few observations on some carts. I'm not good at expressing my point. My point was thus, to put it conceisely:

    1. There's too much fighting
    2. Newbies are mistreated
    3. Make politically smart decisions when questioning something like this.

    No, I was no great hacker either at all. My point was I was there, which should mean NOTHING (which is why I would talk about any of my discoveries in detail though I accidentally brought up something seemingly irrelevant that I researched) and was my version of bashing people who bash people because I thought the argument was ludicrous and that's how I meant it to be. That you could join in 2004, 1998, or 1993 and you shouldn't really be treated much better regardless of when you joined and especially if you haven't visably accomplished too much (as, frankly, I haven't visably accomplished anything and I like the anonymity. Also, my discoveries seem lost due to time, which makes them in my judgement irrelevant and are points of pride on S2&K if you look at the way it was solved and novelty on other things). That was the cause of the explosion. But its also a large reason why I don't do message boards, why I've stayed away-I'm as privy to anger as the rest of you. And to get angered over a video game? Or, more accurately, a message board about a video game? Ugh...Why? Look, people have made comments on here to strangers-in some cases kids-about not knowing what they're talking about (This isn't a fantasy theory board, but if someone doesn't know what the hell a jpeg is, tell them what it is, don't tell them to get lost). And this is a way of getting new people who frankly are newbies from staying away and maintains a group that doesn't want or need new talent. If you learn what a jpeg is today, and learn what C is tomorrow and how to wade through ASCII next week, great. And a set of rules that encourages this behavior? Unforgivable, immature, and a good reason why there's so much bullshit going around anyway. I've missed a lot of the drama of the last few years, and when I see that someone is actively acquiring Beta materials and putting in a lot of time at financial and legal liability, I'm overly defensive at making sure they don't have a reason at getting up and quitting. This was clearly not Sonic X-Treme from Day 1. And it seems to me a good route towards getting a Sonic 3 Beta or Sonic 1 Beta online, regardless of who posts it.

    So yeah, I apologize. In part, though-I mean what I said in the disorganized, rushed way I said them (I write a lot, always). And I am an arrogant son of a bitch so don't think about absolving me of that (you're right for calling me out on it). And I don't dislike anyone personally, its the damned internet. And you're right; I was trying to treat you like pondscum, intentionally, but not because you haven't been around for a while or haven't done hacks. I was trying to do that because you haven't done that AND are treating others like pondscum. Let me make that clear. And who likes being treated like pondscum? And three years is also a pretty long time; over 1000 days. Possibly longer than I was involved. And not everyone left because of drama. Cyan, if I recall, due to work. Though I lost contact with him years ago and it could've been something else, or just not caring; or maybe he didn't leave? I don't know. And not everyone has left, and some lasted in the community for years I see, although if some have been in and out and completely incommunicato for years at a time.
     
  16. Quickman

    Quickman

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    Agreed, but dispute is human.

    I disagree - newbies who get ideas above their station are treated as they ought. You have to earn the right to be as big a bitch as Stealth, because he fucking knows his shit.

    POLITACS

    This isn't a school either.

    We accept newbies. We reject n00bs.

    I get the feeling a little skepticism isn't going to stop drx from finding betas.

    Apology accepted. I'll try to be less of a bitch to people.