Would You Rather A Modern Or Classic Style Game For The 30th Anniversary Game

Discussion in 'General Sonic Discussion' started by MagnusTheGreen, Apr 21, 2021.

  1. Josh

    Josh

    Oldbie
    1,820
    517
    93
    USA
    That's one of my favorite comparisons! There are some parallels to be drawn. Set the lore aside: I really don't care if Classic Sonic is a younger version of Modern, or from an alternate universe. But I absolutely KNOW that his world, his aesthetic, and his gameplay style appeals to me in a different way and for different reasons than Modern does. Fans wouldn't have spent years begging for Sega to bring him back, and we wouldn't have cried when they actually listened, if there weren't merit to that. And that's where I drew my comparison.

    The X series always skewed a little older, there was more focus on story and characterization, the stakes were higher, the gameplay was faster, the tone was WAY more anime, and the setting was more realistic. X could do things that would feel egregiously out of place in a classic Mega Man game, just as Mega Man's more lighthearted, gameplay-centric tone would've felt out of place for X.

    Classic Sonic and Modern Sonic have similarly built defining elements that appeal in different, sometimes incompatible ways. Most Sonic fans are fans of both, but we've always had a vocal contingent that skewed hard toward one or the other. As a fan of both, a lot of what I like about Modern Sonic games would be out of place in a Classic game, and vice-versa. I think trying to consolidate the brand into embodying BOTH is only going to make fans who primarily like one or the other feel disregarded, and erode the appeal of one style in favor of the other. In fact, I'm pretty sure Modern Sonic diehards feel this is EXACTLY what's been happening: That what they like about the series is being disregarded in favor of the classic elements.

    The solution shouldn't be to hack down the branch that's healthy to try and service the branch that isn't, both because failing to follow up on a success the size of Mania would just be insane, but also because that's only going to make fans OF those elements feel that what THEY like is being disregarded. I think the best solution is to build both of them, let them both play to their strongest, most distinct, most beloved elements, let them grow and evolve and IMPROVE independently of other.

    I don't agree with this notion that a Mania sequel should just be a "side game," anymore than I'd agree with the inverse. They BOTH matter. They BOTH have more than enough history, distinction, potential, and dedication to be worth building.

    I saw this at Books-a-Million a few weeks back. At least the merch branding seems to have the right idea! :P

    upload_2021-4-29_23-52-46.png
     
    • Like Like x 3
    • Agree Agree x 2
    • List
  2. The Mega Man comparison only really works so much; Classic and X function similarly enough, as the premise of each series is pretty similar actually; you fight 8 Robot Masters/Mavericks before you duke it out with Wily/Sigma. The structure of both games are similar, with X having a bit more of a focus on combat and exploration. The storyline didn't even really start to develop until around X4. The differences between X and Classic were established from the getgo, with few retcons and changes to the original continuity involved.

    Now let's compare with Sonic; The "modern" games function almost completely different from the "Classic" ones, and the "Classic" and "Modern" moniker was only the result of a hasty retcon to the series` lore. Before Generations, there was no distinction between Classic and Modern outside of Fan circles, and Sega didn't give a shit.


    The Mega Man comparison is extremely faulty and doesn't quite work despite what you may think. Because for one, X was never an "updated" Classic. If anything, X was more like Sonic Boom.
     
  3. Beamer the Meep

    Beamer the Meep

    Better than Sonic Genesis... Member
    226
    65
    28
    I think the main takeaway here isn't the specific gameplay styles that are being compared to OG Megaman and Megaman X, but that both branches of that franchise were able to coexist. In that sense, the comparison is apt enough. Classic 2D styled games can coexist with Modern 3D styled games as separate branches of the same franchise. It's not too much different than Sonic Rush Adventure and Sonic Unleashed coexisting at roughly the same time.

    If we want further examples, Mario has been doing it with the New Super Mario Bros. Series (admittedly to degrading results over the years) and Metroid has been doing it even earlier with Metroid Prime and the GBA Metroid games.
     
  4. Metalwario64

    Metalwario64

    Member
    125
    37
    28
    The comparison between Sonic and Mega Man works if you factor in the classic fanbase has the fans who think that pudgy, NES sprite and early Famicom box art Mega Man is the only legitimate version of the character. As Mega Man moved onto 16 and then 32 bit consoles and his design got much taller and his games began to become more narrative focused with different design choices in the game play, fans basically became split as to whether they only liked the 8 bit Mega Man games, or also 7, 8 and "& Bass".

    The NES ones being the most vocal, even having people say "Mega Man only works in 8 bit", leading to two 8-bit sequels, and Mega Man's representation in Smash being exclusively derived from his NES sprites and animation (which I honestly always found to be faithful to its detriment), having his model be this pudgy abomination:

    [​IMG]

    I will say though, that "classic" Sonic would have had much stronger animations and aesthetics to work with if they had went that route in Smash (and as much as I love Mega Man 2, I prefer Sonic 3 anyway. :P).

    I myself prefer the proportions from 7, 8 and "& Bass" since he's less toddler and more adolescent, so he can actually look cool:
    [​IMG]

    There might also be comparisons between classic and X and the Sonic situation, but the biggest thing for me there is that classic Mega Man and X are distinctly different robots with similar designs, but one set 100 years in the future narratively in the same world. Sonic went through a gradual tone, narrative and design shift.
     
    • Agree Agree x 3
    • Like Like x 1
    • List
  5. Wildcat

    Wildcat

    Member
    136
    43
    28
    I’m gonna suggest if they keep using Classic as a separate thing move away from the 16 bit look and use modern graphics.

    I know some would be totally against it but it was mostly for nostalgia. That’s fine but it does not have to be stuck in the pixel age. Mario’s 2D games didn’t keep the NES/SNES look.

    Genesis stages look really cool in proper 3D even if it only plays in 2D.
     
  6. Josh

    Josh

    Oldbie
    1,820
    517
    93
    USA
    ...you know, I did say "set the lore aside," haha. It's not a one-to-one analogy, I'm just drawing parallels in how the two series can co-exist, and how their differences came across to me. Even on the gameplay front, X had a dash, he could wall-kick, he was more versatile, he could find and equip permanent upgrades, and there was more focus on speed.

    Yeah, and Sonic Adventure was like Sonic Boom to some of us. That's the point.

    From an interview with the creators of Sonic Fan Remix:
    upload_2021-4-30_0-54-35.png

    Character designs were changed, Amy was suddenly older, characterizations were tweaked, the visual and audio aesthetic was different... heck, the most ardently anti-Adventure fans back then were the ones who were the MOST dedicated to the Genesis/Mega Drive games, I suppose because they were the most invested in what the series had been to that point.

    I mean, I've said it before, if you want to understand what it was like, just remember all the outrage about the new character designs introduced with Sonic Boom, and imagine how much worse it COULD have been if Sonic Boom became THE sole face of the brand in 2014. And I bet we'd still have had people 20+ years later going, "It wasn't that different, though!" Okay, but as a 10-year old experiencing this shift in real-time, IT WAS to me.

    It didn't stop me from getting a Dreamcast in 1999, absolutely LOVING Sonic Adventure, and considering it one of the best games I'd ever played. But I always preferred the style it had before, and I always wished it would come back, because it held a different appeal to me. This split in the fandom didn't just come out of nowhere, y'know? It happened because a lot of things changed about the series in a very short time, and those new concepts resonated with a new group of fans while AT THE SAME TIME making others feel alienated.

    Like, don't a lot of fans have a point where we think the series took a turn into being something different, focused on a younger demographic, or at least a game that didn't "feel like the same Sonic" to us? Don't most of us at least have THAT much common ground? Are you guys arguing vehemently against him being allowed to continue to exist as his own thing THAT worried he's going to steal too much spotlight from Modern? Because I've only gotten to play as him in a grand total of THREE games in the past 23 years, and if not even Sonic Mania could convince Sega to put Modern out to pasture, I don't think we've got anything to worry about. :P

    EDIT:
    I agree, with the caveat that "modern" doesn't have to mean 3D. Fluid 2D animation styled after the Sonic CD opening or the OVA could make for something that really stands out. Think Sonic Freedom! Which is not to say 2.5D couldn't work, too! Either way, I'm with you, a good way to make it clear that the "Classic" branch isn't going to be tied to nostalgia is to make a game that doesn't LOOK nostalgic.
     
    Last edited: Apr 30, 2021
  7. But it WASN't. That's the point I'm making. Modern Sonic was not some alternate continuity or a distant sequel meant to exist alongside the original, that was literally never the intention when they created the design. The comparison falls apart right there. I wasn't talking about how it "felt", I was talking about how it actually was. There was no "modern" Sonic, it was just "Sonic" plain and simple.

    Sega took a risk and retooled the series, because the franchise desperately needed a shot in the arm at the time. And they did not care about the opinions of a few people on the internet. And guess what, it worked. I don't need to reiterate about Sonic Adventure's and it's sequel's success. Any problems that came later on down the line had less to do with the retooling and more to do with the gameplay design changes being made at the time. We were still getting successful 2D games long before shit hit the bed in 2006.

    If any amount of fans had felt the series wasn't for them after Sonic Adventure, then I'm pretty sure most of them did the sensible thing and simply moved on with their lives to something else. That's why some people are annoyed at the existence of "classic" and "modern", because it's creating a solution to a problem that didn't need to exist.
     
  8. Josh

    Josh

    Oldbie
    1,820
    517
    93
    USA
    Yes, because that's what fans do. :V Everyone who didn't like boost-style gameplay or Pontac & Graff-style writing has just accepted the status quo and moved on, right?

    At their best, I think the fans who didn't care for the series' direction in the 2000s endeavored to understand and celebrate what was different about the classics on a fundamental level, in the pursuit of recreating it and building on it. From a tapestry of different communities, they founded THIS site. There was always a spirit of, "If Sega won't do it right, we will." And that's the spirit that would, among many many MANY other wonderful things, eventually lead to Sonic Mania. Maybe that's a little too romantic, but I'm proud of everyone who played a part in getting there, I'm proud of what our fandom has been able to accomplish.

    Look man, it's clear we're not going to see eye-to-eye on this, and it's not an argument I'm interested in having. My opinion is inherently biased, and I can't defend it to objective standards. I'm not trying to convince you to see things my way, I'm just trying to share my perspective in a way that's understandable and hopefully relatable, even if you don't agree with me.

    Anyway, to actually answer the question asked: I'd prefer both, but if I can just have one, my answer is classic, with the caveat that I'd also hope for a more contemporary style. I'd be perfectly fine with pixel art, of course, but I'd love something that'd dispel the notion that Classic Sonic is only here to appeal to nostalgia. (Which was never the case to begin with, given that Mania resonated with an audience WAY too young to have nostalgia for it.
     
  9. BadBehavior

    BadBehavior

    Member
    205
    49
    28
    I agree, and I hope that fans a who wont put up with Segas bullshit today try to understand the adventure games and build on them, make our own Adventure Mania. Ill wait as long as I have to.
     
    • Agree Agree x 3
    • Like Like x 1
    • List
  10. Mana

    Mana

    Good! Great! Awesome! Outstanding! Amazing! Member
    336
    66
    28
    Sonic Adventure 1 and 2 had good reviews when they first came out but public opinion shifted FAR negative, really quickly when the GC versions came out.

    IGN gave Sonic Adventure 2 a 9.4/10. 8 months later when they reviewed the GC port, Sonic Adventure 2 Battle, the score was brought down to a 6.9/10. That's an INSANE switch up on opinions. They have since edited it out but I remember the reviewer on Battle even questioning the tastes of the Dreamcast reviewers and saying they had no clue why the reviewed it so highly.

    Back in the early 2000's the only reviews anyone cared about, for the most part, where IGN and Gamespot. The same thing occurred on that site as well. Great review for the Dreamcast version (8.6) complete switch up when it hit the GC (6.8).

    Now I can understand why DX got way worse reviews than the Dreamcast version of Sonic Adventure 1, it's crap. However, I feel a large amount of the negative opinions felt for the game at the time was a result of only getting to play it in the worse way possible. With Steam Mods making the game look prettier and fixing out some kinks, the game is being appreciated a lot more now.

    I think a large part of why there was so much hate for the Adventure games during that late 00 era is because everyone can blame it for eventually spiraling into Sonic 06 (still think that game would have been amazing if they gave them a few more months for bug fixes) and Shadow the Hedgehog and the like. People are appreciating them on their own merits again, after decades, and now the love has returned.

    TLDR : Sonic Adventure 1 and 2 got great reviews on their original hardware but something happened during the move to the GC versions which painted a negative opinion for them for the rest of the 00's which has slowly been changing to more positive as time goes on, and what it did right becomes clearer.
     
  11. Sid Starkiller

    Sid Starkiller

    Member
    1,092
    202
    43
    Virginia, USA
    Paying off student loans
    Honestly surprised no one's tried yet. There's been multiple high-profile fan attempts at 3D Sonic, but no one, in spite of all the people who still love the Adventures, has tried making an Adventure Mania? Is there some attempt I'm not aware of, or is that really it?
     
  12. Making functional 3D games is significantly more difficult than 2D ones
     
  13. Aerosol

    Aerosol

    FML and FU2 Moderator
    10,702
    120
    43
    Not where I want to be.
    Sonic (?): Coming summer of 2055...?
    Yea, they aged like horse milk in a way that somehow Mario 64 hasn't. Wonder why that is.
     
  14. Boxer Hockey

    Boxer Hockey

    Member
    201
    220
    43
    The Megaman analogy being an example of two series running side-by-side successfully is a bit weird to me. Normal Megaman only had like... 2 games after X debuted until X stopped having games completely. And then normal Megaman had a few throwbacks after that and now both those subseries are practically dead in the water. Am I missing something here? They barely were ever running at the same time.
     
  15. Aerosol

    Aerosol

    FML and FU2 Moderator
    10,702
    120
    43
    Not where I want to be.
    Sonic (?): Coming summer of 2055...?
    Well I don't recall anybody saying "X is fundamentally broken, go back!" In the same way people talk about Modern Sonic, for a start.
     
  16. Azookara

    Azookara

    yup Member
    I'm so tired of reading the same schtick of how Adventure was such a striking, huge change that affected almost everyone who was into Sonic before negatively. Especially when I myself was a Sonic fan before SA1 dropped. Maybe I was really young and impressionable, sure, but you all were too!

    The more I'm made to read it hasn't changed that I already knew people felt that way, and it certainly isn't gonna change that I'll continue to think that's a stance I find kind of dumb and don't agree with. That's where the issue lies with this discussion and why it cycles back a lot: it's not that the people who disagree don't know people felt this way, it's that it doesn't really matter..

    And man, speaking of mattering. Saying classic and modern "both matter" is just a backhanded way of saying these things (the one you like and the one you don't as much) are different series and there's nothing that can reconcile it, so they should keep it up because it suits what you like more. That's all it really is, and was always the discussion's only goal. Keep this Sonic out of that Sonic, my Sonic out of your Sonic, make more of my Sonic because my Sonic will always be the best Sonic, etc.

    I'm not gonna sit there and do that with an era of writing, art or gameplay I didn't like as much because honestly I'm just not that petty.
     
    Last edited: Apr 30, 2021
    • Agree Agree x 4
    • Like Like x 1
    • List
  17. Wildcat

    Wildcat

    Member
    136
    43
    28
    Ya I want to clarify I don’t see the need to distinguish Classic from Modern but I guess some actually view them as 2 separate versions (not just in character design).

    I honestly do not view the “Classic” era as very different from the “Modern” era. Like I think the series still carries the same general tone and themes.

    They just added to it with the newer elements. New features, characters and spinoffs would have happened regardless if he stayed 2D or not.

    If they make more 2D games I’ll definitely play them but “Modern” Sonic can just as easily be in a Mania 2. He could have been in first Mania but I understand why they used the 90s/Genesis design.
     
  18. Josh

    Josh

    Oldbie
    1,820
    517
    93
    USA
    The Classic series and the X series specifically, in my opinion, mirror a lot of the changes between the 2D games and the early 3D ones, but as I kept saying, it's not a 1:1 comparison. This is mostly just an example of the sort of approach I'd ideally like to see going forward.

    As for concurrently running multiple "wings" of a series simultaneously though, Megaman 6 came out a month before Megaman X, and for the next 15 years or so, at least two different variations of Megaman games were running consistently. Of course, that was in a totally different industry, and I'd say there's a reason CAPCOM doesn't take that approach anymore.

    Ah. I'm very sorry for bothering you with my petty opinions, repetitive perspective, and backhanded notions of what I enjoy about Sonic and how I see the series. Clearly, I have an underhanded, harmful motive in everything I say and believe, so I'll just shut up, now.

    Seriously, though. God damn. I know you've seen a lot of fans over the years who feel this way to some degree, so I'll try to assume good faith that you're not TRYING to direct it at me, but it's hard not to feel like you're laying into me here.
     
    Last edited: Apr 30, 2021
  19. Azookara

    Azookara

    yup Member
    Agreed completely.

    And imo a consistent whole image is always gonna feel better than a fractured one. Sonic's overall identity has only worsened leaning on the latter, while basically all of his fellow legacy platformers and contemporaries thrive on the former.

    And before anyone does, citing series like TMNT, MLP or Transformers as ways the 'fractured' angle works isn't really all that compelling when those series are the kind of shallow, short-sighted and demographic-mongering moneygrubber franchises you would compare to junk food. Sonic's practically one of those series now, and I don't really think that's something to be proud of.

    Fans getting mad about minute things can't really justify the angle, just like the sheer ambition of Sonic Team can't justify the meltdown of the mid-to-later 00s. It's only fair.

    I'm sorry for coming off abrasive or if I hurt your feelings, I'm serious when I say it's nothing personal. It's very much directed at a general audience and not specifically you, though admittedly my response is weighed on your recent stuff said.

    But, and lemme emphasize BUT, when a narrative has carried enough of a convo, particularly as cyclical as this one has for months and months now (and one I'm against at that), I feel like someone is bound to bring up why the cycle continues, or why they feel it shouldn't. And maybe out of my own exhaustion or annoyance with it, I've been one to do that. Again, sorry for the abrasiveness, but not so much for my thoughts on the subject. Sigh, shrug.

    Ultimately I think the biggest reason it stays cyclical like this is because the convo is always gonna end at an impasse. Neither of us are really gonna move from our thoughts, and really neither of the sides here have any stake in what Sega does anyways, since they follow the winds of... honestly whatever they feel like at the time, I don't even know man.
     
    Last edited: Apr 30, 2021
    • Agree Agree x 4
    • Like Like x 1
    • List
  20. Josh

    Josh

    Oldbie
    1,820
    517
    93
    USA
    Fair enough, apology accepted. I think we're both just sick of it. I think a great many fans are frustrated and apprehensive right now, and it's causing a LOT of strife.

    Speaking for myself, I know I'm tired of reading takes (mostly not HERE, admittedly) that make me feel like some bizarre revisionist history is being forced onto the series in an attempt to justify bringing back a lot of elements that we as fans spent AGES begging Sega to fix. I'm tired of people trying to minimize Mania's impact and success. And just like we once tried to make enough noise to get Sega to change direction, I sometimes feel like most of what I enjoy about the series NOW is being deconstructed and pushed against in the current zeitgeist, and that makes it monumentally depressing to try and engage with the community. You just end up feeling attacked.

    I don't know. I keep stepping away for a few weeks, then I decide to come back and it just bums me out all over again, so I s'pose I'm the one causing it if nothing else.