Discussion in 'General Sonic Discussion' started by MagnusTheGreen, Apr 21, 2021.
Yeah I'm agreeing with you lol. Sorry if I wasn't clear!
A 2D Classic Sonic game with 100% new levels would be enough for me!!
(no rehashed or remixed levels please!!
I've felt in a similar way recently too, not just about the games themselves but also about discussing the franchise so intensely as we've been doing here recently. I also find crafting more interesting than trying what other people does or analyze their work, which I suppose is a sentiment you share since you're still tinkering with ROM hacks, I suppose there's a point where stuff like Sonic is meaningful to our lives, but not meaningful enough to our current lives to spend this much time and energy in them. Or maybe we just prefer actually doing things than chatting about how things are done.
Back on topic, I've been thinking recently I want to see a Sonic-based esport come to life, and I'm not talking about a fighting or a racing game; the closest to it the franchise has done is probably Sonic Forces Speed Battle, and it's so unbalanced and overlooked it's still far from what an esport is. A successful esport would mean a solid title you could keep supported instead of messing around constantly and a solid source for profit that could support itself and even allow for a larger budget on standard games. Look at Brawl Stars, and you'll have an easy time seeing (classic?) Sonic and all of his friends in the same game without compromising the core gameplay of the title. And, more important, esports are highly relevant now: if you want Sonic to be a trend-maker again, but there's no hardware to push, innovating in this field could be the closest you can do. Also, if PSO2 has lived for so long as a F2P title, low tech and budget shouldn't be an issue to make an starting point for this.
Think about this: following the usual roles, you could have "speed" characters capturing flags and bases, have "power" characters engage in combat with opponents' minions or other "power" characters, and have the third type of characters (sorry, I forgot their keyword) to be mobility/ support characters who can access spots other characters can't and do stuff there like opening or closing doors, or activating field traps, all in a format that would fit with the teams in Sonic Heroes, so you get even a familiar roster for the initial launch with no effort. I mentioned minions which could be badniks or another kind of robots, and they could even be field hazards and not minions at all. Well, I think half of what I discribing may be screaming "League of Legends", which is funny because I find it terribly boring, but I'm just trying to put an example, so I'm not the one who has to innovate. Also, add level geometry that lets you play with it but not to the extent of a classic game, just to have different characters take advantage of their skills.
Other than that, probably a game that isn't a classic game, a boost game, or their in-between Advance/Rush games; these kind of gameplays have been done enough. You could argue Adventure style too, but it was never that consistent, so I'm not asking to go back to those titles, but, if we had to go back to something, non-boosting 3D Sonic of yore allows and needs more rework than any other playstyle from the main series, even if they did it wrong in Lost World (it's not an Adventure title, but it's a non-boosting 3D title anyway). Properly doing classic in 3D may be an option, but even properly doing Boom could be, so, whatever it is, as long as it's 3D, it's no boost and it's well made enough, it's a good choice.
...man, reading this is wild, because I was one of the young fans who grew up with the Advance series and was absolutely steeped in them from badly-done sprite edits to make OC's to hilariously stupid and edgy fan animations and comics that used them to fangames that ripped them for use. Hearing that there was this subset of the Sonic fandom who hated them while me and the other 10-15-year-olds were obsessively using these things in everything is just...really funny lol
I might as well chime in on this.. now I might be called out for being biased, but after playing through Mania again today (both Mania and Encore Mode) I don’t see how you can’t go with another classic 2D game.. as someone who grew up with the classics, this was a breath of fresh air for the franchise and was very successful critically and commercially after “mostly mehh” 3D entries.
The blueprint is right there.. if Mania was highly acclaimed (which it was), expand on the gameplay (use all original zones and either keep the original 5 characters or add Amy to the mix) and keep the development team that contributed to that success (Evening Star.. I don’t care how much they want, they deserve all the money because they know what they’re doing)
I’m cautiously optimistic that SEGA will go with the Mania sequel but I’ve been disappointed before so we shall see.
I was one of those I didn't really like them. Or at least all the fan edits.
I wanted the Chaotix-esque 32x/Saturn 32-bit Sonic we never got. Sonic Mania came close.
I remember something I wanted. The Bunny concept (maybe even others). Do something like Epic Mickey. I think I mentioned this but somewhere else. I know one of the fan games included him.
It makes sense for an Anniversary type storyline without relying on Classic Sonic to represent the past. He doesn’t have to be the antagonist like Oswald. Have him start out a friend that helps Sonic defeat Robotnik. Give him his own stages and abilities. I prefer 3D but he’d fit either way.
I just want a new game that's fully satisfying to play and moves the series forward and/or introduces a new but fun gameplay element to spice things up without compromising that makes the core gameplay fun.
I don't really care for it being 2D vs 3D. Really I'd say we should be getting 1 of each if anything.
As a big Epic Mickey fan, no idea where you got the idea that Oswald was the antagonist.
I remember this also, from way back in the Sonic Cult days. I think that the criticism largely stemmed from the fact that the sprites were so small and used flat colours with pretty bold outlines instead of the larger Mega Drive sprites with detailed shading. It was both of those factors in conjunction with the fact that the characters were using their (relatively new) "Adventure" designs. For as expressive as the Advance sprites might have been, they were a pretty big departure from the Mega Drive sprites in more ways than one. And then there was the bad association from their frequent use in sprite comics and fan characters, and the awkward mishmash of Mega Drive and Advance sprites that fans did too.
I never liked sprite comics and fan characters, but really enjoyed the sprites themselves. And I was like what... 9 when Advance 1 came out originally and 12 when Advance 3 came along? The only big issue that I had with them was how in all of the games (except Battle), many of Knuckles' sprites were very, very evidently retoolings of Sonic's. It was especially bad with the Advance 2/3 running animations, wherein Sonic looked like he was running faster than he could handle and Knuckles ended up the same.
Just... bleh. It's an ugly and kind of unfitting sprite for Sonic, which means the same is also true for Knuckles. I think Tails and Amy may have similarly shared the same base for some of their sprites? It was never as obvious to me if that was the case, and there were no sprites that I disliked quite as much as these anyway.
I don't really know what this has to do with the topic at hand so I'm not going to reply further to this discussion and derail the thread. Just wanted to say all this.
I grew up playing the Classics too. I know I that I just mentioned how old I was when I played the Advance series, but Advance 1 was Classic in all but its aesthetics and I wasn't able to play the 3D games until later, and less consistently. The 2D games, especially the Classic ones, were the most formative for me.
Mania, as great as it is and as refreshing as it was for most of us here, is firmly rooted in the past. A brand new classic Sonic game, even one that does something new, would still be looking backwards. The series has moved on and grown an awful lot since the classic days. To go fully classic (aesthetically or mechanically) either means ignoring or reversing huge amounts of the series' development to laser focus on just a few years as though the rest never happened. I really don't want that. I want the series to move forwards.
A new classic game will always be welcomed by me. It's one of many styles that the series has done in the past and is one of my favourites in the entire world of video games. It's not the way forwards though. It's welcome as a bit on the side, in addition to the main dish.
I haven’t played it in awhile but he starts out being against Mickey because he was forgotten and stuck in Wasteland.
Antagonist was the wrong word. He just was not on his side at first
While I understand people's insistence that Classic is the way forward due to Mania's rampant success after two decades of mediocre 3D games, that in itself is the problem don't you think?
Think about it logically; Mania is the most successful game in recent years, but it looks and functions like a game from 1995. A damn good game from 1995 mind you, but the point stands.
To illustrate my point further, Mega Man 10 got slightly less favorable reviews after the initial hype from Mega Man 9 wore off. Nostalgic throwbacks will only work for so long before the audience expects something new.
And I understand WHY some of you want Mania to be the foundation going forward after how underwhelming the 3D games have been, and if you just overall prefer the original aesthetic. But Sonic needs to move forward, not back. I'm not opposed to using Mania as a foundation for a new 3D game, but I really don't think the primary attraction of the series should be games that live in the past.
Sonic's been living in the past for too long now, its time for the series to evolve into something else. "Modern" or "classic" are irrelevant labels at this point and I hope to see their official use retired soon.
This idea that another game that plays like the classics isn't the way forward is laughable to me. Like, I get the series needs to evolve and grow, yes. But there's no reason the Classic Universe can't exist as its own pillar of the franchise alongside whatever Sega Team does with Modern Sonic (although I would like them to rename them, since Classic is no longer the past version of Sonic apparently). I think a lot of people who want a Mania 2 or another Classic style game are not wanting something EXACTLY like Mania, that had reused zones and Saturn art style. There are all sorts of ways to evolve the formula. Now, they don't have to take leaps and bounds with every game; sometimes iterating on something that works is a good thing. Mania was the most successful thing the franchise has had in forever, building off of that (which means evolving and growing over time) is absolutely a valid way forward. It might not be what everyone wants, but there's no reason the franchise can't build off Mania going forward.
Also Mania doesn't just "live in the past." It revisits a lot of locations from past entries sure, but outside of 1 or 2 acts, theyall have new level layouts and stage gimmicks. Mania also added the drop dash to Sonic's moveset, which got included in Forces and has been seen in countless ROM hacks and fan games. The core gameplay might be largely the same, but it isn't like Mania did nothing new at all.
If SEGA does decide to essentially reboot the series and do something new, as long as it's good, then that's also a legitimate way forward. But there's no reason they can't build off the most well-regarded game in the series in a long time.
The fundamental premise of Sonic Mania is that it is a game styled point for point, like a game from the 90's. Everything from it's aesthetics to control is meant to emulate the Classic styled games in every way. Like I said, it's a DAMN GOOD game, I will never take that away. Sonic Mania is an amazing game and deserves all of the praise that it gets. But you can't sit here and tell me that a large part of the game's good will is built on the fact that it's styled after games from the time when the series was at the peak of it's popularity over two decades ago. It's almost literally the same type of hype and recognition that Mega Man 9 got, hence why I brought up the comparison.
And I never said that series shouldn't build off what Mania did, I said specifically it should not be the primary attraction. A fun little side series meant to enhance the franchise, by all means. But Sonic Team's games need to be at the forefront, and serve as the central pillar of the series. We've seen what happens when franchises lean too heavily into nostalgic imagery as opposed to moving forward; New Super Mario Bros. started off as a cool throwback to classic titles, only for it to be milked dry and people getting tired of it by the fourth entry. As I mentioned earlier, Mega Man 10 reviewed slightly worse from Mega Man 9 after the initial hype wore off, which prompted the design and aesthetic changes seen in Mega Man 11.
Yes, they need to build off the success of Mania, absolutely. No they do not need to make Mania the main attraction of the series.
I don't think anyone is suggesting Mania be the "main attraction" as you put it. Do correct me since I obviously can't speak for everyone, but I think the majority of us here are suggesting that a game that builds off of Mania in an original way can coexist with whatever mainline 3D game comes forward in much the same way the Advance or Rush series supplemented the main series.
I'd have to re-read the thread to confirm what everyone else has been saying, but I'm pretty sure this is what's been said or implied. It's what I've been saying at least. I would welcome more classic games with open arms but if they're the main attraction or all we get, them I'd be very disappointed. There's a place for the classic games to thrive and strengthen the series as a whole as long as they don't take centre stage.
I don't see why "classic" Sonic has to be 2D, necessarily. I view it more as a general aesthetic, tone, etc. than any specific gameplay formula. Though perhaps you could say there's more of an emphasis on maintaining and managing your momentum over the guided-rails "gotta go fast" that newer games have devolved into.
I'd love to have a full 3D "classic" style game that actually has you interact with your environment in a more meaningful way, physically. Something like CD or 3K, but it controls like 3D Blast (but is actually 3D and not overhead isometric). I doubt SEGA will ever make such a thing, so I'm not holding my breath. Fortunately, fans can always fill that gap.
i feel like sonic forces very specifically highlights what i want sonic games to stop being, personally
forces tried to be Everything For Everyone; a game with classic in it and side-scrolling levels, a game with (poorly done) analogues to archie stuff, a game which prominently featured adventure-era characters who havent shown up for more than 5 seconds since unleashed came out... it did everything and was mediocre-at-best at all of it.
im tired of mediocre-at-best... i really want them to put their all into a game that'll blow our collective socks off. im not quibbling about the character designs or anything either; modern characters look fine, especially in uekawa style. i just want the games' overall visual identity to be more cohesive and less slapped-together.
i really want to see the series actually attempt to look forward instead of...like... languishing in its own past.
(wild-card thought: they should remake sonic adventure but have ryu ga gotoku studio do the adventure field segments. give me sonicuza)
I agree with this sentiment.. there is absolutely nothing wrong with a Mania sequel being sort of supplementary to the next main 3D game, just don’t tie them together like how Mania was to Forces.. keep them separate (I still prefer classic and modern Sonic being two entities going forward).. my only concern is that SEGA won’t capitalize on Mania’s success and just cast it aside like “one and done”.. one portion of the fanbase will get pissed off no matter what, but the classic fans will definitely be more vocal if SEGA doesn’t follow up with a Mania sequel.
I know I’m probably repeating what other people said, it’s just hard when we don’t have any announcements to dissect on.. I hope E3 is when something is finally revealed
It's hard for me to imagine Mega Drive Sonic ever being repositioned as "the main attraction" for Sonic games at the expense of everything else. Not when it's historically been regulated to re-releases, the occasional merchandise, and scoring iconography points. I don't see that changing in the future--despite Mania's success, it doesn't even seem like they even want it around as a bit player to begin with.
I think it would be awesome to have a new Mega Drive game that's treated as worthy of a major release, especially seeing how other major 2D platformers (Mario, DKC, Rayman, Mega Man, etc.) were brought back in a big way. If Sega didn't consider games like Sonic 4 and Mania as the ceiling instead of the floor of what Mega Drive games could be, they could definitely pull it off. The Classic Sonic levels in Generations had some shades of what a capable team could do for a new game, in terms of production values and ideas.
And I do mean "a major release" as exactly that, just one out of multiple opportunities that the series could tackle. A new Boost/Rush Sonic and a new Adventure/Advance/non-Boost Sonic I think could serve as tentpoles in their own right, just as well.
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