Discussion in 'General Sonic Discussion' started by TomGyroid, Nov 17, 2022.
Somewhat off-topic, but what does "Table" refer to in that chart? Board games I assume?
Even if we were to pretend that all the missions in Mario 64 were about gathering items (they weren't), that's a weird comparison to make. M64 was treated as a mainline Mario game from the onset, and was designed for the latest Nintendo console of the time. 3D Blast was created as a MD title, intended to come out on the same year as the Saturn Sonic installment. The Saturn version was a port made later.
There's merit in the argument that the hopes were that X-Treme would be the next mainline game, being more advanced in every way. But not only did that never happen, it's hard to argue based on what SEGA had in mind at the time because, notoriously, this was an extremely troubled time there (think Nights engine debacle). Not even X-Treme was originally designed for the Saturn, but for the 32X (if I understand correctly). The point here is that 3D Blast's gameplay isn't any weirder than whatever X-Treme or even Adventure had going on.
Also, it still stands: Mario 64's mission structure was, just by the fact that there were missions, a completely different approach from the classic A-to-B paradigm. That's inevitable.
I remember hearing about *both* X-Treme and 3D Blast coming to the Saturn. I remember seeing both in newspaper inserts at the same time. Now it's certainly possible my memory is flawed regarding them coexisting. And frankly, thinking about it with my adult brain, why would a company want to advertise two games for the same console at the same time, potentially confusing consumers?
But despite what my memory tells me I saw vs what might actually be wrong, I do think it makes sense for 3D Blast to have been planned in advance in case X-Treme didn't work out.
Board games, card games like mahjong, quiz games, pachinko, mini game things like Puzzle and Action Tant-R, etc. I can’t think of an easy way to define it, but you sort of know it when you see it lol. Usually it’s games where control objects and not characters.
Here’s a list: https://segaretro.org/Category:Mega_Drive_table_games
For what it's worth, in the early days of Sega Retro we spent a while working out what "table" was too. I think it was envisioned as a place to put mahjong and shogi games - pinball they like to class as "action" as well, so it's a category that isn't seen much in the West (although yes, board games like Monopoly do fit). Sonic Shuffle is classed as a table game in Japan... sometimes (it's common to sub-divide these days).
Sega's previous names for the genre have been "HOME" and "FAMILY" - I suspect the term "table" came from elsewhere in the industry, with Sega adopting it around 1994-ish (with the move to the Saturn).
Can't say that I've ever doubted 3D Blast's status in the canon, only ever questioning when exactly it takes place. It was positioned as a major title and as a bridge between generations despite being mostly outsourced to TT. The scenario, concept, and music (on the MD) were all done in-house by ST. It received numerous re-releases and ports, and even an Archie arc.
Sonic Xtreme was meant to be another main entry, yet also wildly experimented with new gameplay/presentation. Perhaps most crucially, would there be any debate surrounding the status of Sonic 3 had it not abandoned its initial isometric 3D design? Certainly not if still released as S3.
I just have difficulty believing that Sega, one of the top game companies of the 90s, intended for 3D Blast to be its premier franchise's response to Mario 64, Crash Bandicoot, etc. Do you realize how ridiculous that sounds? 3D Blast' isometric gameplay was already behind the times when it came out, and Sega was no stranger to "true" 3d games, having produced a number of such titles that year and before. Even the Sonic series had received a real 3d game (albeit not a platformer) in Sonic the Fighters, before 3D Blast came out.
Everything about 3D Blast from its design to its development history points to it being a side game, rather than a core title intended to bring the series to the 5th generation. Even when it was released, it was seen as outdated and a joke compared to its competition.
I don't believe it was intended to be an answer to the aforementioned titles, because anyone with a pair of eyes can see there's no comparison. But it was intended to give Sonic *something* on the Saturn. It was the best they had to offer at that point in time.
I mean, yeah. The highly advertised mainline Saturn Sonic game people were expecting was canned, so they ported the latest side game to give them something.
It was developed for Saturn with enhancements due to the state of X-treme, but it was never a side game.
It was meant to be a companion game to X-treme for a less powerful system. Sounds like a side game to me, like the SMS/GG games.
Except that it was never a companion to that title. From conception, long before the turbulent development of X-treme became untenable, 3D Blast was to serve as a swan song for the Genesis and the culmination of Sonic's run on the console. The Saturn version was very much an afterthought to make up for the failure of the X-treme team to deliver.
It was certainly presented as a companion title. I believe that X-treme trailer was when it was first unveiled.
Well Sega Europe seemed to think so:
Roses are red,
Sonic is blue,
His new game on Saturn Flushes Mario down the loo!
Sonic 3D - Flickies' Island for the mighty Saturn is being released two weeks before arch-competitor, Mario the plumber climbs out of a drain with a new game of his own. Sega is preparing to send Mario into the sewers as Sonic defends his crown as videogaming's King.
Schrodinger's cat Sonic. It's a canon and not canon in a same time
I think, this discussion hasn't any chances. Even if we'll ask someone from developers answers will be "yes", "no", and "what is Sonic 3d?", imo :p
Canon of Sonic game series is a thing, that everyone can imagine for themselves. You think, sega Sonic was before S1? Ok! What? You think, that Sonic mania was after 3d blast blast flickies island? OK! It hasn't any contradictions! Sonic 4 is canon? SET THAT MAN ON A FIRE!!!
Ofcource, it's only my opinion
I think the terms mainline and canon are pretty useless in regards to Sonic. The series will have some games be canon and then will drop them depending upon who's working on the games. Sonic Generations explicitly references Secret Rings. Is that a mainline game? Is it part of the mainline canon? I guess most people would say no instinctively because it doesn't affect the 'mainline' games' stories. It also very clearly comes across like a spinoff series. But then Sonic does mention it in Generations so I guess it is canon? Hard to argue with that!
You don't think it is mainline because Pontac and Graff are no longer writing? But then Flynn has made certain spinoff characters canon in the mainline world in Frontiers too. And then we have the problem of Sonic in Sonic Adventure being the same Sonic from the Classic games in Adventure to Generations, then two separate dimensions in Forces and Mania, then no actually they are the same Sonic in Frontiers.
The truth is that there isn't a clearly defined canon and there never really has been. The Sonic series treats certain games as canon and discards them as the series goes along.
Sometimes the series just doesn't seem to care. Knuckles' Chaotix is presumably canon because the Chaotix are in Heroes and aren't introduced as new characters. Sonic and cast seem to know them already. But then they never interact with Knuckles and the story never gets referenced. So are they a different universe version of the Chaotix who never got introduced? Who knows!
Like raphael_fc said, spin-offs can still be canon. The fact Sega called Secret Rings a spin-off didn't stop it from getting referenced in Generations. Sonic Battle was referenced by Advance 3. Shadow's game continued his character arc and it's officially a spin-off.
and the Rivals series is canon because it's where everyone met Silver for real.
It was until it wasn't.
From what I recall, the "Storybook Series" was retroactively applied to Secret Rings when Black Knight was announced. Prior to that, it was "Sonic's having a different adventure on the Wii [to 2006]". In fact it may have been the first time Sega acknowledged the idea of a sub-series existing in their franchise.
Sonic R was considered to be the "next Sonic game" in 1997, not a racing spin-off like Mario Kart or Diddy Kong Racing. Sega just weren't thinking along those lines back then - it's just a "game". Looking back now, it's clearly not a thoroughbread, but marketing didn't want you to know that.
Actually looking through the credits, Sonic 3D doesn't seem to specifically say "developed by Traveller's Tales". Sonic R does... once you've completed the game, but it's not like say, Crash Bandicoot where they announce CREATED BY NAUGHTY DOG before you even see the title screen. You get a TT logo in both, but that doesn't mean much on its own - I know I personally didn't grasp the concept of "developers" and "publishers" until years later - I just thought Sega made Sonic, and thus of course they're all part of a singular line of releases.
Separate names with a comma.