Why Sonic 2?

Discussion in 'General Sonic Discussion' started by Ultima, Feb 16, 2013.

  1. jasonchrist

    jasonchrist

    Give Us A Wank Misfit
    1,893
    0
    0
    Sonic Classic Hybrid Project
    This is one area I think S3 wins. Big Arm was a fucking colossal final boss, it looked the most predatory and deadly machine you had to face. From facing down the cannonball boss, the surprise of finally riding in an eggpod, to the sky going dark after defeating the triple stage boss, the split second descent of this evil looking machine and thinking "what the fuck was that!!??" as you wonder where the fuck it will surface - as THAT music starts to play. GAH! The whole setup was akin to a fucking horror movie. Big Arm (or Squeeze Tag as it was called back then) gave me my only Sonic related knightmares.

    Death Egg Robo was awesome and runs it pretty close, but both of them shit all over Doomsday which doesn't even come close.
     
  2. Metal Knuckles

    Metal Knuckles

    HAVE SOME FUN WITH MIKU Member
    4,942
    0
    0
    New Hampshire, USA
    Shadow Alpha, an awesome hack of Sonic 1
    Sonic 3 > Sonic & Knuckles > Sonic 1 > Sonic Spinball > ... > Sonic Heroes > Sonic 2 > Sonic '06
     
  3. TheKazeblade

    TheKazeblade

    "Our Life is More than a Side-Effect" Member
    Whoa. You're playing with fire, man :v:

    Sonic 2 incorporates elements that can be considered pure "Sonic." The aesthetic was a more refined iteration of the kinds of things that we saw in Sonic 1, for example.

    It's really hard to explain, but I think of all of the classics, Sonic 2 feels most "complete." The level order, the slow but sure ramp-up of difficulty and seriousness of the level order make you feel like you're building up to a strong conclusion, and you do. When you beat the Death Egg Robot, you feel like you've achieved an ultimate victory because of how well crafted and developed the rest of the game was.

    Sonic 3&K may have the best level design in the 2D series and my personal favorite, but it really does feel like it's 2 games mashed together. Doomsday (with all Chaos Emeralds) feels epic, but the difficulty was not nearly as high as Sonic 2, and since the game basically peaked as far as climax and final boss battles twice by this time, it feels more of a relief to have just made it through rather than the feeling of accomplishment and victory S2 gave.
     
  4. dsrb

    dsrb

    Member
    3,149
    0
    0
    Definitely agree here. Kudos on the analogy to SoR, btw!

    To elaborate, it wasn't ideal that S2's DEZ was mostly a rip of CPZ... until you realise that it makes sense. Plus, S3 could easily have added some new, distinctive elements to it while keeping it recognisable as unmistakeably the same Death Egg. As it is, the zone looks almost nothing like its previous incarnation and is mostly underwhelming as a final stage both graphically and in terms of gameplay.

    Probably the best things about S3's DEZ are the mini-bosses. A more familiar and threatening DEZ with menacing gadgets like that strewn throughout the level would not only be awesome: it would make a lof of sense. Then you realise that SSZ already did something similar, which, whilst it's quite cool - because Mecha Sonic kicks ass - I would happily trade for a DEZ full of mean sub-bosses.
     
  5. jasonchrist

    jasonchrist

    Give Us A Wank Misfit
    1,893
    0
    0
    Sonic Classic Hybrid Project
    Nursing serious wood now, thinking about what I'm doing with DEZ in the Hybrid Project. :)
     
  6. dsrb

    dsrb

    Member
    3,149
    0
    0
    Haha, get it done!
     
  7. Metal Knuckles

    Metal Knuckles

    HAVE SOME FUN WITH MIKU Member
    4,942
    0
    0
    New Hampshire, USA
    Shadow Alpha, an awesome hack of Sonic 1
    Just be glad I didn't expand on that. The expanded list actually holds that Shadow the Hedgehog > Sonic CD > Sonic Heroes > Sonic 2 > Sonic '06.
     
  8. Aerosol

    Aerosol

    FML and FU2 Moderator
    10,619
    82
    28
    Not where I want to be.
    Sonic (?): Coming summer of 2055...?
    Why are Sonic games still so geometric, anyway? It looks mathematical and weird with the graphical muscle we have today.

    Off topic but the thought just came to mind and it was bugging me.
     
  9. JaredAFX

    JaredAFX

    SonicManEXE Member
    842
    0
    16
    Florida
    Downloading megahertz
    ...Peculiar. That's all I'm going to say. That's another discussion for another thread. Of course, I could say Sonic Adventure 2 > Sonic Colors > Sonic Generations > Sonic 2 > Sonic 06 > Shadow the Hedgehog, but that's also another story (it's also not "expanded").

    EDIT: I'm not saying one's better than the other; I'm just talking about my favorites. As far the best is concerned, SA2 is very low on the list. The best ones are undoubtedly the Genesis games.
     
  10. Metal Knuckles

    Metal Knuckles

    HAVE SOME FUN WITH MIKU Member
    4,942
    0
    0
    New Hampshire, USA
    Shadow Alpha, an awesome hack of Sonic 1
    I'd imagine that it's because those shapes played a heavy role in defining Sonic from the get-go. By the time of the first game's release, how many games had slopes that curved naturally, with the accurate-ish physics and everything? Prior to that, there was nothing but right angle steps, and sudden slanted slopes. Loops and hills became such an ingrained part of the series in our mind that it's become part of what makes a sonic game in our heads. Kinda like jumping on bad guys in Mario games.
     
  11. Aerosol

    Aerosol

    FML and FU2 Moderator
    10,619
    82
    28
    Not where I want to be.
    Sonic (?): Coming summer of 2055...?
    I dunno. I think that it's time to move on from quarter pipes, slopes, and minor bumps in the road.
     
  12. RetroKoH

    RetroKoH

    Member
    1,658
    13
    18
    Project Sonic 8x16
    To respond to Jasonchrist's post and touch on a couple of those subjects a little.

    Completely agree on the difficulty, or lack thereof, with S3K. I beat that one and got Super Sonic before I ever beat the other two. I was 6 when I first got the other two (and sucked at video games). I was almost 9 when I got Sonic 3K (and still slightly sucked at videogames). Seriously the only difficult parts of Sonic 3 were: A. The CNZ barrel, which I wholeheartedly feel was unintentionally difficult... B. Certain acts like Sandopolis Act 2, that drag on, and are not too difficult to get a Time Over. and C. Knuckles adventure when playing certain parts (I still hate playing Sandopolis 2 as Knuckles)

    About the lack of control segments... you can argue against that, in that there are parts of Sonic 1 and 2 that do somewhat similar. I'll list them. S tunnels in GHZ (you CAN have some slight control... in slowing yourself down if you want, but that's about it). Moving block obstacles in MZ and SYZ, don't take your control away, but also don't leave you with much to do but wait. LZ water tunnels keep you moving forward, with limited control moving up and down, exactly like Sonic 3's HCZ water tunnels. SBZ has the wheel that holds you in place, and the teleporters, albeit those are quick. Finally, the last run through GHZ is completely automated, although that is understandable. ALL in all nothing else in Sonic 1 is really automated.

    Sonic 2 has the tubes in CPZ and is also where we introduce the god awful speed boosters, the spin lock control hijinx in Casino Night, and that zone's slower than death elevators, S tunnels return in HTZ, The orbs in Oil Ocean Zone... are probably the MOST automated thing in the entire classic Sonic series, bar none. Even if you break the automation, it causes bugs! MTZ sees the return of the teleporters, which are very slightly slower in execution, the nuts that you run across can be tedious at times, but not automated. Sky Chase Zone is just a fucking waste. Side scrolling zones in Sonic just don't work... and you can argue that Sky Chase's scrolling is the most jarring example of lack of real control in the classic series IMO. There is a wind tunnel segment in Wing Fortress that removes control completely. As for Death Egg Zone, the ending sequence is, just like the GHZ ending, completely automated running. Unlike last time, this shouldn't have been the case. I think they could've made a fun little extra challenge where Sonic had to run through, escaping the explosions (not unlike StarFox 64). This is something I want to implement, either in Sonic 2 REV C, or in Trilogy Enhanced.

    Now, as for Sonic 3, the cutscenes are obviously out of players' control. That's fine. Let's look at what isnt so fine. The AIZ tree is ok, since you can stop yourself, or jump out at anytime you want. S tunnels return and are the same as before. HCZ has the running boosters that really weren't needed. Nothing really automated, but they hold you there, and then finally release you at high speed. Isn't this the purpose of the Spin Dash to begin with? Couldn't the same speed be achieved with a simple roll? WTF? Spinning paths in HCZ aren't bad either, as you can control yourself to a degree in them. Now, for MGZ. Those spinning running tops sucked in S3K, which begs the question, why the fuck bring them back to Generations? Anyway... these tops lead to a couple of sections that you really don't need to do anything in order to proceed... but at no point are you completely out of control. CNZ has the gravity elevators, in which you lose completely control, however it's really no different, than say... the SBZ teleporters of Sonic 1, in function... other than the fact that they are a bit shorter, faster, and you have control over your trajectory after the teleporter sends you to your destination... so if nothing else, it is more controllable than the past two games' iterations. The Candy cane tubes are controllable... BUT it is difficult to control yourself on it. The light tube that you grab onto and it swings you around gives you no control of movement, though you CAN jump on and off it at any time. Tunnels are present in ICZ, and that's all there is there to note. LBZ, for what its worth, has the first real bit of non-cutscene loss of control, sit and watch syndrome. The teleport pods take forever to start up, and then, after arriving at the destination, take forever to let you out... plus there is no way to really have any say in the outcome of where you are going. The LBZ swings can be controlled and jumped off of freely. The water tubes are blatant automation, and can also stand to be done differently, in a way that wouldn't stall your momentum. That, and LBz is a speed booster level. I hate speed boosters. I could keep going but my point is that there isn't anywhere near as much of the sit and watch bs as you are letting on. You COULD sit and watch... if you want, but in no way is it forcing you to do so... unlike the current crop of games.

    My one real gripe of loss of control that annoys me is the S3K Death Egg light loops. You have to wait, and wait, and wait... for fuck sake... it is so long, I'd almost go so far to say that Sonic Adventure 2 can load a level faster than some of those loops take you through a path. Add to that, there is no way to exit the loop if you want to, and at times, it can be MUCH faster to skip the fucking thing. THAT is the worst gimmick in Sonic classic history. Perhaps if it was used to take you somewhere you couldn't get without it, that's ok... but this is ridiculousness.

    My point to all of this is, that unlike the current games, there is MUCH MORE control over many of the gimmicks seen in the classic games compared to now... and as I've pointed out in some examples... all of this stuff COULD be done differently.
     
  13. Ultima

    Ultima

    Games Publisher Tech Member
    2,398
    1
    18
    London, England
    Publishing mobile games!
    Interesting read everyone. Thanks!
     
  14. TheInvisibleSun

    TheInvisibleSun

    OVER THE TOP TECHNO-BLAST Member
    I'd even go as far as to say that they're actually obstacles...
     
  15. Toasty

    Toasty

    BulbaSAUR! Member
    I'll admit, most of my love for Sonic 2 is nostalgia. I remember my mom opening the box for our Genesis - freshly packed with Sonic 2, my first video game ever. This was for Christmas '93, I would've been 5. My mom wasn't a particularly loving mother, she never did things with me or even hugged me really. Some of my few loving memories with her involve Sonic 2, she actually sat down and played it with me a few times. We played through Emerald Hill Zone together which was amaaaaazing! I can remember every frustration I felt with Sonic 2. I kept drowning in Chemical Plant Zone and Aquatic Ruin Zone, I had trouble against the boss in Casino Night Zone, I'd get caught up in the earthquakes in Hill Top Zone, I got stuck in a pit that was inescapable and full of spikes in Mystic Cave Zone, I kept dying in Oil Ocean Zone, Metropolis Zone was long and hard for a little kid, and finally, Wing Fortress gave me trouble yet again at the boss. Oh, and another memory I have of Sonic 2 was around Christmas '95, my mom was making christmas cookies and stuff, I remember being frustrated from Wing Fortress Zone and FINALLY beating the boss for the first time in my life. Guess what happened after that? Yup, Death Egg rapin'! I couldn't beat that fucking boss for YEARS. I was 7 when I made it to him the first time. I was 17 when I downloaded Sonic 2 onto my computer and finally beat that piece of shit for the first time. Sonic 2 took me years to beat! But I still love it to pieces. So much nostalgia.

    I love Sonic 3 + Knuckles, but I don't have the same nostalgic memories for that one. My mom got them on eBay in the late 90s and before that, I had only played Sonic 3 once when we rented. Don't get me wrong, I love Sonic 3 + Knuckles! It just didn't have the same appeal to me when I beat it in literally 2 days. Oh, and at this time, I still couldn't beat the final boss in Sonic 2 and I was hating Sonic 1 because of Labyrinth Zone. I got the true ending without looking up guides online, I figured out you could start Angel Island Zone/Mushroom Hill Zone on the file select, get a chaos emerald, then reset the Genesis to get another. It took me 10 seconds to figure out jumping wasn't getting me anywhere on the barrel in Carnival Night Zone, so I tried the only thing left, by pressing up and down simultaneously. Sonic 3 just isn't as awesome as Sonic 2, but it's still a great game.

    p.s. Sonic 2 > Sonic CD > Sonic Generations > Sonic 3 & K > Sonic 1 > your mom > dog shit > vomit > Sonic 06 > Sonic Heroes
     
  16. RetroKoH

    RetroKoH

    Member
    1,658
    13
    18
    Project Sonic 8x16
    Off topic, my apologies, I wanna touch on something with everyone's little comparison lists. I find it blasphemous (excuse my misspelling...) that any of you would even begin to claim that Sonic 06 is better than Sonic Heroes...

    Story - Sonic 06 tried way too hard to be serious (in a Sonic game..???), and made 0 sense... Time Travel is a bitch for storylines outside of Sonic CD. Sonic Heroes had a basic classic Sonic storyline. Eggman builds massive fleet, is captured by Metal Sonic who wants to finally defeat Sonic. All 4 teams have different reasons to pursue the doctor, only to find out who the final bad guy is.

    Concepts - Sonic Heroes, on paper, was everything I wanted in a Sonic game for years. The chance to play as all 3 characters at once. Add to that, the fact that they did it with 4 teams. Was it well done in execution??? Not quite, but I can find some positives. As far as zones and whatnot, Heroes didn't really bring too much new to the table, though I loved Egg Fleet. Sonic '06, I felt, had some good ideas as far as zone concepts, like Crisis City. Silver was a nice idea on paper too...

    Gameplay - Both are terribly broken, but at least Sonic Heroes tries to be a Sonic game. IDK what the fuck they were going for with 06... having Sonic move much at the speed that two old geriatrics fuck... that and the massively awful HUB worlds, and repeat stages for no reason (Wave Ocean, I'm looking at you.) That said, I enjoyed the infinite ability meter for Sonic, Silver's TK ability, and Blaze was a delight to play as compared to anyone else.

    Zones - I've touched on it above already... I don't think one really outshines the other. Seaside Hill/Ocean Palace is definitely better than Wave Ocean, based on originality alone, and there's Egg Fleet. Aside from that, I'd actually give 06 the edge... Heroes at times felt like you were playing 1 playthrough of a few copies generic level #01, each with a different coat of paint.

    Bosses/Enemies - Both are equally bland and uninspiring, and both games bosses are repeated and reused constantly. I'll actually give 06 the edge for two reasons: 1. Iblis monsters in Crisis City are a great, fresh fit... 2. Heroes has that fucking stupid generic red Eggbot.

    Overall - It actually took me less than 2+ years to complete Heroes. I've owned 06 since 2011, and STILL haven't gotten 3/4 the way through it. I can't do it... It's fucking atrocious. Everyone, to each their own, but I actually like playing Heroes from time to time... without questioning the meaning of my life.
     
  17. The Game Collector

    The Game Collector

    Member
    837
    0
    0
    Washington State, USA
    Being Ted Narcotic's bass player; working on Kelly Kristjanson's tape archive; collecting video games
    The whole packed with the Genesis thing is kind of moot because Sonic 1 was packed with the Genesis before Sonic 2 ever was. It just goes to show that the majority of the public were late adopters of the Sega Genesis because they were to busy still being enthralled by Super Mario Bros. 3 to be ready to go to the next gen until the price dropped on all major consoles that weren't a Neo Geo (SNES, Genesis, and TurboGrafx-16).

    The whole thing is an opinion and often times people will just base their opinions on whatever the first thing they ever played was. If you played Sonic 2 first you cry about how Sonic 1 doesn't have spindash. If you've played Sonic 1 first, you realize it wasn't designed or supposed to have spindash in the first place.
     
  18. Epsilonsama

    Epsilonsama

    THE FASTEST TAPE ALIVE! Member
    Sonic 2 is the Sonic game everyone played. When people think of Sonic believe it or not most of them think not of Sonic 1 but of Sonic 2. In some ways Sonic 2 was Sonic's popularity skyrocketed. Sonic 1 was the start of something different but it felt slow compared to its successor. Sonic 2 was Sonic 1 but overcharged. You had the same Main Theme, similar art style, the music sounded pretty much the same (for obvious reasons). It also helped that Sonic 2. Where does that leave Sonic 3&K. Where for starters it came 2 years after S2, giving enough time for people to get S2. It also was pretty expensive to play the entire S3 saga while anyone could easily get S2. The art style was different and to this day many people even loath S3 Sonic, I mean you think that Green Eyes was hated man are you so wrong. The music was radically changed, while S1 & 2 was pretty much J-Pop S3&K was American Pop and Hip-Hop and a bit of good old Rock & Roll. S3 was more realistic and was the 1st game to leave the checkered boards of Green Hill. If you think about it, SA1 wasnt the first game in the series to be realistic and have a story it was S3&K. That said S3 is a solid game, the best designed 2D game IMO. But when people think of Classic Sonic they don't think of S3&K, they think of checkered boards, green hills and soothing music. The Realism of Sonic 3&K does not come to mind.

    You gotta understand that for America there werent videogame consoles there was only Nintendo. So many parents bought their kids, my family included, a Super Nintendo. It wasnt until Sonic's release that the tides started to change. Sonic 2 was bundled with the much cheaper Model 2 making it sell a lot more and making it more convincing for parents to buy this Sega the kids were blabbing about.
     
  19. Vendettagainst

    Vendettagainst

    Apparently shooting kills things Member
    I personally always thought CD and 1 were the best. I love the visual styles of both, and the early 90's influence in both. 2 was probably my least favorite - the levels don't feel right together and some (Oil Ocean, Hill Top) just feel like they're dragging on forever.
     
  20. Aesculapius Piranha

    Aesculapius Piranha

    つづく Oldbie
    4,308
    30
    28
    Unknown
    Diva
    It's no secret that Sonic 1 and Sonic CD are my favs. I did love Sonic 2, though. Since it introduced 2 player, I have a lot of fond memories playing it with friends. Nowadays I think I find it less favorable just for the graphics and music. I feel Sonic 1 looked and sounded better than Sonic 2, gimmicky corkscrew loops aside. Super Sonic was a cool bonus, and Tails was fun (if not fun to make fun of), and neither were developed into a separate gameplay mode.

    S3& K were neat, but ultimately weren't as fun to me, even if Ice Cap was one of the coolest zones ever.