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Why does anybody like the time limit in Sonic games?

Discussion in 'General Sonic Discussion' started by Willie, Mar 29, 2012.

Do you like the time limit in Sonic games?

  1. Yes.

    34.8%
  2. No.

    25.2%
  3. I don't care.

    40.0%
  1. ICEknight

    ICEknight

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    Isn't the challenge precisely what differentiates between videogames and interactive programs, as in the difference between games and toys?
     
  2. Sonic 65

    Sonic 65

    Tech Member
    Doesn't seem so. Building a complex 3D model with 3DS Max is probably just as or more challenging than playing through Kirby's Dreamland, for example, but the latter is considered a videogame and the former just a program. Even under the other definitions people provided, both are "pursuits or activities with rules," "structured play," etc. (since both are computer programs.) You could even think of many computer programs as sandbox games, like Minecraft's Creative Mode except with a larger range of possibilities. Ultimately I haven't seen an adequate definition anywhere that separates videogames from other types of computer programs without any major inconsistencies, it just seems to be a difference in degree that everyone gets instinctually without being able to put it in words. The difference between a game and a toy is easier to talk about; a game is an activity governed by collection of rules, a toy is just an object.

    C'mon, when was the last time you saw a high-profile game released under the "indie" marketing label get a Metacritic rating below 80%? I can't think of one off the top of my head.
     
  3. Jayextee

    Jayextee

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    For great truth, I have quoted this. I wouldn't mind the Sonic series being more challenging with regards time limits; it's a fast series, with a fast character. Why not have the incentive to play fast? It's not rocket science.
     
  4. I guess the 10 minute rule is supposed to be a fail-safe in case of getting stucked into solid blocks. Maybe it was a work around for some bug in Sonic 1 and stayed for the later games. Though, I don't remember ever getting stucked in Sonic 1, but that gimmic came in quite handy countless times in Sonic 3.
    If that's the origin of the 10-min Rule, then I guess it's more pitiful to have a "Suicide" option when you pause the game.
    Despite the time limit Rule, something is certain: The clock is so very much important in a game that is supposed to be fast! Is as if there were no timer in car games.

    Personally, I find it quite challenging to go through levels as a "collector" and try to beat them below the 10 min mark. But I also agree that breaking the rule with and paying with losing everything isn't a cool balance.

    Maybe a time extension could work well. A 1 minute extension could be achieved per 100 or 200 rings. So, if you fool around, it'd better be for a good reason. And if you lose your rings, you go back to the 10 min.
    Or it could be completely disabled, but leave the suicide option available in case of running into a wall.
     
  5. Impish

    Impish

    Member
    To find the definition of Video Game, we have to remember it's a type of game, so lets take a look at some definitions of games.

    This one seems to make the most sense to me.
     
  6. Mercury

    Mercury

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    I love that there's not even consensus on what the definition of "video game" is. =)

    This comes back to what I was saying about Yoshi's Island; I don't mind an incentive to play fast, but it should be a fluent part of game design and not an arbitrarily imposed abstraction.

    Also, this fucking brilliant article by Scarred Sun touches on why I think one should be wary of adding too many such "incentives" to Sonic games. We all play Sonic differently and like it for different reasons, and the games' capacity for that is part of their appeal.
     
  7. Volpino

    Volpino

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    The reason those get high scores is because nobody bothers to pay attention to anything lower. Steam, for example, has quality control any legit company would be able to pass but an indie developer would struggle with. The vast majority of indie titles go unnoticed by the mainstream and even someone like me who plows through indie-dedicated sites has to look for a lot of them. My point is, if it's not "high profile" for a regular company, it gets a bad score, if it's not "high profile" for an indie game, it doesn't get mentioned.

    Also I think one thing that separates a game from a program is that you can't normally do anything productive with a game, it's just there to be fun. You can use a model you make in Blender, but you can't do much with a Minecraft sculpture. Other than that, I have the same problem, since I have so much fun using Artweaver (Even if it is just to smear colors around and make something I might not save) but that is considered an application.

    You people are so much better at saying what I wish I could. I just read that, I will carry those thoughts if I ever manage to do something remotely successful with programming.
     
  8. Just making the time limit be something you can optionally turn on seems like the best idea for me. You want a challenge? Here, have it where you gotta complete the level within a certain time limit! Wanna just mess around and explore? Knock yourself out, there's no time limit to screw you over!

    In the end, having a time limit is all about how you enjoy playing the games. Some people really enjoy racing against the clock, giving them a sense of adrenaline, while others enjoy finding the secrets that the levels contain.

    I had an interesting idea after playing the recent Kid Icarus game though. In the game, before you start the level, you can move a slider to make the game harder or easier. Well, what if Sonic had something similar? the farther to the right the slider is, the shorter the time limit is, but you'd get better rewards if you complete the level under this time limit. Don't feel like trying to clear a level in a minute? just slide it back, give yourself some breathing space. Don't wanna bother with a time limit? just slide it the opposite direction. Sure, you won't get rewards for doing it, but you can enjoy the level in all it's splendor, and there'd be secrets in the level you could try finding instead that offer different rewards for exploring.
     
  9. BlazeHedgehog

    BlazeHedgehog

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    But that's kind of missing the point; the idea behind Sonic's time limit isn't that it's supposed to be strict, it's just that it's there. It's not supposed to be "I can't stop moving or else I'll die" levels of panic-inducing. Buttoning down the time limit to make it more strict would discourage exploration and experimentation.

    The pressure to finish a stage does not have to always be suffocating in its intensity; ten minutes is usually long enough that you can still be pretty leisurely and finish with four or more minutes to spare. And that's fine, but somewhere in the back of your mind, you were at least aware that there was an impending time limit, and that had an effect on you.

    Not everything has to be black and white, "in your face at all times" or "completely non-existent". There's something to be said for subtlety.
     
  10. Tiberious

    Tiberious

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    I dunno. I never really had problems with the timer, except Carnival Night 2 early on, but I think that's due to that dick-move barrel, combined with the (usually) slow as hell boss fight (benefit of experience has made these trivial).

    Of course, Security Hall, well, that was a pure dick move, and I hated that pants-on-head retarded setup, while giving you only 5 minutes with a gimped radar. Worse, the remake removed the very helpful bug that let you actually clear it in any decent time, making you go through, find the emerald, trudge back up to the switches, hit the right one, go back down, collect, and repeat. Stupid if you hated using the hint screens.

    But, games are meant to be a challenge, hmm? Alright then. Let's dream up a 'Hardcore' hack of Sonic 3 & Knuckles. We'll give it 5-minute time limits, only 14 big rings leading to instant top-speed special stages where you have to Perfect the stage to get the emerald. Oh yeah, take out the extra life routine, disable SRAM, change the 'bad ending' to instant game over, and just to discourage cheating, if changes to RAM are made outside their normal write routines, error the game out. Fail at this Sonic equivalent to Kaizo Mario? Well, guess you suck. Get better at it.



    Bad example? Maybe. But how well do you think the game would have sold if that were the retail release? My guess is that would have killed the series outright and we wouldn't even be here today.
     
  11. jasonchrist

    jasonchrist

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    This x1000! I really miss the days when "Game Over" really fucking meant "Game Over" and you had to go aaaaaall the way back to the beginning. Since 94 you can just start where you left off, and that's wrong as fuck! 3K should've erased your save when you got a game over... but then again you must be REALLY shit if that happens because you can potentially yield 10 lives and a continue from as little as 20-odd rings. Oh yeah, continues. I felt like the biggest faggot in the world back in the day if I had to use a continue.

    Anyway time limits don't really bother me so much.
     
  12. Volpino

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    Yeah let's take the fun out of video games. :colbert:

    Try reading through the last couple pages.
     
  13. dsrb

    dsrb

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    Having no risk can divest a game of fun just as much as anything else can.

    We get it. You like easy games. So? That's your opinion. And that’s Jason's opinion. I'm inclined to agree with him here.
     
  14. gold lightning

    gold lightning

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    I have to say that the high risk in old-school gaming is what drew me into gaming. It has been quite a while since I felt the kind of pressure that Jason is talking about. There's nothing like being extremely nervous because you reached the Death Egg or Mario world 8-4 with just 2 lives. The payoff of actually pulling it off while under those circumstances is a thrill that I miss nowadays. Sure you might instead get a game over and be bummed out for a while, but that always made me want vengeance even more on that motherfucking final boss. Thus, it sorta added replayability for me as well.

    I always felt that time limits in levels were good because it keeps the pace of the game higher. I also felt that if you sucked so bad that you reached 10 minutes you deserved to lose a life. Plus if you didn't suck and chose to spend that long in a level to explore, you should also have collected plenty of lives in the level before the time limit anyway. Thus, it really didn't do much to you at all anyway.
     
  15. Solid SOAP

    Solid SOAP

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    In retrospect, the time limit wasn't THAT much a problem in the classics. However, it was pointless in CD, which had a heavy emphasis on exploration above speed. It was more of a distraction than a challenge to me, really. I didn't feel challenged to beat each level in 10 minutes, I felt that it was more of a burden and annoyance than anything.
     
  16. Jayextee

    Jayextee

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    Thirded. Gimme a fucking challenge, I'm man enough to handle it. That's why I once hacked into Sonic 1, insta-kill on the spikes. If I knew how to give myself a 2 minute time limit, I would've done. ;)
     
  17. Volpino

    Volpino

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    I also like games that have the option of being hard for the people that want a hard game, because I actually respect that some people would like a harder difficulty, as long as I can have my easier one.

    I don't see you two giving me the same courtesy.
     
  18. OKei

    OKei

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    Fourth'd. This is a reason I go back to playing games like Viewtiful Joe and Elite Beat Agents. Those games are brutal at there hardest difficulty, but very pleasurable and rewarding. I see higher difficulty as a form of discipline. It can teach you how not to repeat any mistakes you've done over and over again, and have you rethink your strategy to complete a level.

    For the record, I tend to start my games at Normal difficulty to get a feel of the game. Then when I beat or go back to the game at a later point in time, I would try again at a higher difficulty. It's a reason for me to come back to the game.
     
  19. Volpino

    Volpino

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    Just wanted to say this response really made my day. People are insane when they think difficulty is all that matters in a game, there are so many downsides to it.

    So, honest question. Are you guys total work-o-holics in real life? :specialed:
     
  20. muteKi

    muteKi

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    There need to be more games that, when you die in them, automatically uninstall themselves and leave a mark for themselves in the registry somewhere which, when found, will prevent reinstallation.