When you roll and then jump in the Genesis/Megadrive versions, you hav

Discussion in 'General Sonic Discussion' started by LOst, Dec 1, 2010.

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  1. LOst

    LOst

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    <!--quoteo(post=534762:date=Dec 1 2010, 04:47 PM:name=steveswede)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (steveswede @ Dec 1 2010, 04:47 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=534762">[​IMG]</a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->When you roll and then jump in the Megadrive versions, you have no control over the direction Sonic is going. But do this in Sonic CD and you have no problem with any direction.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    Yep, this is a known fact.

    Of lately people seem to like the Sonic CD way of things.

    Quote from Mercury, SFR programmer:
    <!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->A second intentional change is that Sonic can control the trajectory of his jumps even if he jumps while rolling. Sonic CD is the only one of the classics to do this, and I find it vastly superior. In fact, I can't imagine why the other way was ever used – what's the logic behind it?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    Let's see what the instruction manual says about this move:
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    It is some kind of "super stunt". That's all I can find. maybe the Japanese manual has more information (that would be in Japanese so I can't understand it).

    Now, let's look at the games which use this move:
    Sonic 1, Sonic 2, Sonic 3, Sonic & Knuckles, Knuckles in Sonic 2, Sonic Advance 1, Sonic Advance 2, Sonic Advance 3. (possibly more?)

    That is an impressive collection of games using this move, so there must be a reason behind it. I have certainly missed it if it was uncovered before.

    The only thing I could think of is that such a move could be used as a game feature to get more score points while attacking enemies (since it is more difficult to aim, it should be rewarded if succeeded). But I haven't found any traces leading to this. Also the Sonic Advance series don't abort the move when activating the quick shield (like Sonic 3 does), yet again to prove the move is not a leftover but very much an active game feature.

    Now I am asking Sonic Retro to find the answer. Old interviews, new interviews, hacking, testing, anything that can uncover why the move is still such deeply tied to the original Sonic games.
     
  2. serpx

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    I don't think there's much reason behind it. I think it's just a move that the physics allows, and they just gave it a name. Why they haven't used the Sonic CD approach? Good question, could it even have been something of consideration? I'm not as knowledgeable as you guys in regards to history and tech stuff, but I'm assuming Sonic CD is running on a slightly different engine than the classics. Also, wasn't Sonic CD in development around the time of Sonic 3? That'd answer why Sonic 3 and Sonic and Knuckles aren't using the ability to where you can control the trajectory as you spin and jump.

    Also, in regards to the Advance games, I'm assuming they looked more towards the Genesis classics for their engine, than Sonic CD.
     
  3. Mr Lange

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    I would guess its the same in the Advance games because modern Sonic Team was scared to modify anything (seeing as they're now soulless nimrods that lack any insight or vision whatsoever), they just tried to copy the original game physics without even thinking about it. Obviously today they have said ah to hell with everything.

    At the same time, Sonic CD felt like it branched off from the series a little. Look at the spindash in Sonic CD, it was quite different from Sonic 2, even though Sonic 2 came out first. It looks like they took some liberties in the game design, and for whatever reason Sonic 3 just kept to its own continuation blind of Sonic CD.

    Now if you ask me, the game feature I never understood that wasn't in the other games, was that move ONLY featured in Sonic Triple Trouble, allowing you to go into a spin while in mid air. This seriously should have been adapted to the 16 bit games, it was extremely useful and would've made the combos considerably more fun. I am really glad it was built into Sonic Megamix, thank god those guys have an eye for everything that made the Sonic games good.
     
  4. serpx

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    <!--quoteo(post=534826:date=Dec 1 2010, 02:59 PM:name=Mr Lange)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Mr Lange @ Dec 1 2010, 02:59 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=534826">[​IMG]</a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I would guess its the same in the Advance games because modern Sonic Team was scared to modify anything (seeing as they're now soulless nimrods that lack any insight or vision whatsoever), they just tried to copy the original game physics without even thinking about it. Obviously today they have said ah to hell with everything.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    Correct me if I'm wrong, but, regardless of the Sonic Team logo on the game, the advance series is made by Dimps.
     
  5. I would assume its due to physics.

    When something is moving in one direction with momentum, an opposite force must be applied to reverse direction.

    When Sonic is spinning in the air, he has no way to counter his momentum, and thus becomes uncontrollable in the air.

    On the ground, this isn't really an issue as he can use ground friction to stop and reverse direction, but in the air he has no such counter force.

    Sonic CD seems to get this wrong, as Sonic can move in the air, but their is no reason to why he can suddenly move in the air from previous games.

    I could see him using some super fast spin to change the air currents and allow him to alter his direction, but that isn't used in Sonic CD, or ANY other game for that matter.

    So...is Sonic CD in the wrong or the right here?
     
  6. steveswede

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    <!--quoteo(post=534829:date=Dec 1 2010, 09:03 PM:name=RGamer2009)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (RGamer2009 @ Dec 1 2010, 09:03 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=534829">[​IMG]</a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->So...is Sonic CD in the wrong or the right here?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    I wouldn't say either. It just evolved in a different way.
     
  7. Mr Lange

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    <!--quoteo(post=534828:date=Dec 1 2010, 10:03 PM:name=serpx)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (serpx @ Dec 1 2010, 10:03 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=534828">[​IMG]</a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Correct me if I'm wrong, but, regardless of the Sonic Team logo on the game, the advance series is made by Dimps.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    Ah shit you're probably right.


    <!--quoteo(post=534829:date=Dec 1 2010, 10:03 PM:name=RGamer2009)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (RGamer2009 @ Dec 1 2010, 10:03 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=534829">[​IMG]</a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Sonic CD seems to get this wrong, as Sonic can move in the air, but their is no reason to why he can suddenly move in the air from previous games.

    I could see him using some super fast spin to change the air currents and allow him to alter his direction, but that isn't used in Sonic CD, or ANY other game for that matter.

    So...is Sonic CD in the wrong or the right here?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    Its not like the physics in Sonic games, let alone most platformers, are realistic. What makes them fun and intuitive is their compromise of realism for human entertainment. You can't argue the move shouldn't be allowed because it would never work in real life. Granted, Sonic tries to hold true to many specific things, but otherwise I promote adding this minor leverage for the player's benefit since its otherwise a frustrating hindrance.
     
  8. DigitalDuck

    DigitalDuck

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    I think I'll post a quote of mine and Deef's from the Sonic Fan Remix topic:

    <!--quoteo(post=519008:date=Oct 18 2010, 08:17 AM:name=DigitalDuck)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (DigitalDuck @ Oct 18 2010, 08:17 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=519008">[​IMG]</a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It's designed to limit the power of rolling, otherwise there's no reason to actually run anywhere. Sonic CD removed it because the Peelout was a reason to run (except they kinda messed that up with the ability to roll immediately afterwards).

    Basically, it's there so you're not just a spinny ball of destruction.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    <!--quoteo(post=519044:date=Oct 18 2010, 01:31 PM:name=Deef)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Deef @ Oct 18 2010, 01:31 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=519044">[​IMG]</a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Well it's great to hear that the physics changes were not just points overlooked, and I completely agree with the rebounding change. But controllable rolling jumps.... well what Digital Duck said. Having that control disabled deliberately was a big deal to me. I know that technically the player simply has more control with this change but I really liked how it was a battle of speed and control. You have the spin dash for free speed anywhere; the uncontrollable jump was kind of like tearing down a hill, needing to jump, and going "FFFFFFFFFFUUUUUUUUUUUUU..........".<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->


    I know I prefer the MD control version, even though I'm a big Sonic CD fan.
     
  9. VB.NET

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    Well in Sonic 1, 2, 3&K and CD Sonic can control his movement (left or right) while falling after running off a ledge so doing the exact same thing while spinning makes just as much sense in Sonic's world. While it is handy to control Sonic after a Spin Dash or Roll jump I don't really care to be honest as long as Sonic games have 'good' physics.
     
  10. Aerosol

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    I kinda like trying to use a spindash-charged jump, only to realize moments later that my planned trajectory probably wasn't the best idea. That "FFFFFFFFUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUU-" feeling, as Deef put it.
     
  11. The Taxman

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    I'd say the rolling jump is intentional, because when you think about it... when Sonic's spinning that fast from a roll, how's he meant to know where he's going? :P

    Seriously though, it's probably just a way of balancing the gameplay. I can see it being changed in Sonic CD possibly due to the more vertical and dense level design.
     
  12. LOst

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    <!--quoteo(post=534840:date=Dec 2 2010, 12:27 AM:name=DigitalDuck)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (DigitalDuck @ Dec 2 2010, 12:27 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=534840">[​IMG]</a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I think I'll post a quote of mine and Deef's from the Sonic Fan Remix topic:

    <!--quoteo(post=519008:date=Oct 18 2010, 08:17 AM:name=DigitalDuck)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (DigitalDuck @ Oct 18 2010, 08:17 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=519008">[​IMG]</a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It's designed to limit the power of rolling, otherwise there's no reason to actually run anywhere. Sonic CD removed it because the Peelout was a reason to run (except they kinda messed that up with the ability to roll immediately afterwards).

    Basically, it's there so you're not just a spinny ball of destruction.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    I really like what you are saying here. It makes sense! Same goes for Taxman, who knows a great deal about Sonic CD and its design!

    It would be very good to hear official words though. If there will ever be an interview with Naka, this question should be in the list.
     
  13. Mercury

    Mercury

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    <!--quoteo(post=534825:date=Dec 1 2010, 09:55 PM:name=serpx)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (serpx @ Dec 1 2010, 09:55 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=534825">[​IMG]</a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I'm not as knowledgeable as you guys in regards to history and tech stuff, but I'm assuming Sonic CD is running on a slightly different engine than the classics.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    To my knowledge, it's a straight mod of Sonic 1's engine, so it would have to have been intentionally removed.

    <!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Also, wasn't Sonic CD in development around the time of Sonic 3?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    I remember Ohshima saying that with Sonic CD he wanted to "beat" Sonic 3, but it was also in development during Sonic 2's creation. I guess it had a long development cycle.

    <!--quoteo(post=534829:date=Dec 1 2010, 10:03 PM:name=RGamer2009)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (RGamer2009 @ Dec 1 2010, 10:03 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=534829">[​IMG]</a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->When Sonic is spinning in the air, he has no way to counter his momentum, and thus becomes uncontrollable in the air.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    This can't be it, because Sonic can normally control himself in the air, while spinning or otherwise, as long he wasn't rolling when he jumped.

    My only rationalisation for the phenomenon is this: Sonic can't see properly while he's spinning, so if he jumps while spinning he has no idea where he's going when he starts his jump. This seems kind of lame, though.
     
  14. steveswede

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    <!--quoteo(post=534840:date=Dec 1 2010, 09:27 PM:name=DigitalDuck)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (DigitalDuck @ Dec 1 2010, 09:27 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=534840">[​IMG]</a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It's designed to limit the power of rolling, otherwise there's no reason to actually run anywhere. Sonic CD removed it because the Peelout was a reason to run (except they kinda messed that up with the ability to roll immediately afterwards).

    Basically, it's there so you're not just a spinny ball of destruction.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->


    Isn't this logic saying that you prefer broken controls than relying on platforming for the challenge? This is also speculation with what you say here. I have to agree with LOst that it would be great to know the real reason behind it, but I don't expect it to be anything like a decision to balance the game, just a case of separate ideas to fine tune the physics. I can only speculate that we would have seen Sonic CD features like control over the ground spin jump (and that shit camera mode) in Sonic 2, 3 & K if the Sonic Team had not split up.
     
  15. amphobius

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    I see it like this.

    The Sonic CD guys had the S1 source, and heavily modified it. When they were going through things, fixin' shit, they came across the roll thing and thought to themselves "Hmm, this must be a bug" and 'fixed' it. Whereas the Sonic 2 guys were maxin', chillin', <strike>playin' some b-ball</strike> doing shit and thought "Hmm, this must be intentional behaviour" and so they kept the roll behaviour. The guys for Sonic 3 then thought "Hmm, this was in the last two main games, thus we shall do the same" and there you go.

    Pure speculation, however!
     
  16. Vinchenz

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    The physics in Sonic CD are different? I never knew that.

    I'm having a hard time grasping the different physics though... so when you jump from a roll you have control over it?
     
  17. LOst

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    <!--quoteo(post=534972:date=Dec 2 2010, 03:37 PM:name=DalekSam)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (DalekSam @ Dec 2 2010, 03:37 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=534972">[​IMG]</a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I see it like this.

    The Sonic CD guys had the S1 source, and heavily modified it. When they were going through things, fixin' shit, they came across the roll thing and thought to themselves "Hmm, this must be a bug" and 'fixed' it. Whereas the Sonic 2 guys were maxin', chillin', <strike>playin' some b-ball</strike> doing shit and thought "Hmm, this must be intentional behaviour" and so they kept the roll behaviour. The guys for Sonic 3 then thought "Hmm, this was in the last two main games, thus we shall do the same" and there you go.

    Pure speculation, however!<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    LOL. That could be true. Well at least for the Sonic CD team. Sonic 2 was programmed by Naka (who made the final choice of having that move in Sonic 1).

    <!--quoteo(post=534981:date=Dec 2 2010, 05:05 PM:name=Vinchenz)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Vinchenz @ Dec 2 2010, 05:05 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=534981">[​IMG]</a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The physics in Sonic CD are different? I never knew that.

    I'm having a hard time grasping the different physics though... so when you jump from a roll you have control over it?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    You only have control over it in Sonic CD, and in Sonic 3 (& Knuckles) after Sonic has used the quick shield (possible bug, since it was fixed in all Sonic Advance games (except Advance 3 that doesn't have a quick shield when I tested it last night)).

    Ugh, I hate saying "it was fixed in the Sonic Advance series", like if they were better games than the originals, which isn't true.
     
  18. Endri

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    As far as Sonic 2 and onwards are concerned, I remember the horizontal lock was intentionally inserted when jumping from a roll because:

    When rolling, Sonic can achieve a much faster speed than his top speed, and, while there's no speed cap when on ground, there is still a speed cap when on air, so locking the input when on air would prevent a sudden momentum cut, since it's assumed that when one rolls is because one wants to keep a breaking-neck speed, therefore it would make sense to block the horizontal input when jumping from a roll because it was the easier way to counter the limitation that them, themselves, put in the game engine, thus allowing the player to keep the previous speed.

    And from this standpoint, it would also make sense for Sonic 1, too; locking the horizontal input to prevent speed cap from activating. Even though it has a speed cap even when on ground.

    If I'm not mistaken, something along those lines where written in the brazilian manual of Sonic 2 (minus the engine limitations thing), but I can't be bothered to check right now. But I remember I read it in something that was Sonic 2 related; or it was the manual, or it was a magazine.
     
  19. LOst

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    <!--quoteo(post=534988:date=Dec 2 2010, 06:39 PM:name=Endri)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Endri @ Dec 2 2010, 06:39 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=534988">[​IMG]</a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->As far as Sonic 2 and onwards are concerned, I remember the horizontal lock was intentionally inserted when jumping from a roll because:

    When rolling, Sonic can achieve a much faster speed than his top speed, and, while there's no speed cap when on ground, there is still a speed cap when on air, so locking the input when on air would prevent a sudden momentum cut, since it's assumed that when one rolls is because one wants to keep a breaking-neck speed, therefore it would make sense to block the horizontal input when jumping from a roll because it was the easier way to counter the limitation that them, themselves, put in the game engine, thus allowing the player to keep the previous speed.

    And from this standpoint, it would also make sense for Sonic 1, too; locking the horizontal input to prevent speed cap from activating. Even though it has a speed cap even when on ground.

    If I'm not mistaken, something along those lines where written in the brazilian manual of Sonic 2 (minus the engine limitations thing), but I can't be bothered to check right now. But I remember I read it in something that was Sonic 2 related; or it was the manual, or it was a magazine.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    So when jumping from rolling, you can't gain any speed (I can't confirm it at this point)? The lock is not for braking but accelerating. I didn't think about that! My mind was set at the allowed directions. I know how important it is to limit the speed, or else you go through walls, or start pushing up slopes.
     
  20. The Taxman

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    This isn't entirely related, but a fun fact of the original Sonic games is you can't roll up if you're holding left or right. So in order to roll you have to let go of the direction you're holding. This probably contributed to why the rolling felt so borked in Sonic 4 for classic peeps, since you have to do the exact OPPOSITE in order to make sure the momentum doesn't stop dead.
     
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