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What would make a good classic sonic game?

Discussion in 'General Sonic Discussion' started by tonic41, Oct 2, 2009.

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  1. HeartAttack

    HeartAttack

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    <!--quoteo(post=357694:date=Oct 4 2009, 09:37 PM:name=DimensionWarped)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (DimensionWarped @ Oct 4 2009, 09:37 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=357694">[​IMG]</a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Originality has never once been the series' strong point.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    Can you elaborate? I'm trying to think of ways to validate that claim, and I'm drawing blanks.

    EDIT: I mean, honestly, the Sonic series is untouched in what it does. It's a platformer that focuses on speed and uses pinball mechanics - what other game besides Sonic is anything like Sonic? I mean...I guess if you take into consideration that, yes, pinball machines did exist prior to Sonic games, then you could kind of say that Sonic isn't original...but that would be just kind of dumb.
     
  2. Clutch

    Clutch

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    There's the second game featuring the Death <strike>Star</strike> Egg and Super <strike>Saiyan</strike> Sonic.

    Not that it's really unacceptable.
     
  3. tonic41

    tonic41

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    Sonic game code name? sonic classic
    wow talk about off topic. anyway out of all foxes... why tod. he dosent look like him at all.
     
  4. HeartAttack

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    The core Sonic game and everything it entails is FAR from ripping anything off. Of course, you will find references and respectful homages to other pop-culture icons in some of the Sonic games, but the Sonic character and all he entails is completely original. Saying he's a ripoff of anything is ridiculous.
     
  5. A classic Sonic game needs emeralds, robotnik trying to steal them, zone specific badniks, one annoying water (read: drowning) level, and an even mix of spped and platforming.

    I recommend:
    - Foundation Characters (Sonic, Tails, Knuckles, earlier-game characters)
    - Creative Bosses... but not too wacky
    - Intuitive level design
    - Only a HANDFULL of bottomless pits... if any.
    - No wierd plots... Maybe expand further on Angel Island's fate after S3K
    - Make levels more than just a remix of the original levels of S1.
    - NO RAILS
    - I personally would leave out the homing attack.
    - Don't put spikes everywhere like some hacks do (in an attempt to make things "challenging")
    - Make sure the music is a little more complex than an 8-bit port of ice climbers... or something that sounds similar.
     
  6. Ross-Irving

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    This thread should be called "How to fix Sonic...IN DISGUISE! HAHAHAHAHA!"

    Also, arbitrary purism "No rails! No homing attack! Vague good things like uh...make it fun!" Almost everyone is suggesting things that we know are wrong and are pretty obvious, yet offer nothing on how to "fix" or improve whatever they see as bad.

    Topic starter, just play S1, S2, SCD, and S3K again. As you're playing, take notes or write down whatever pops in your head.

    Good grief.
     
  7. Here are my $0.02, even though there isn't much that hasn't already been said.

    Bottomless Pits of Doom: Need to be used VERY sparingly if at all, and only in appropriate environments (I.e. ancient temple/underground cave death trap, or a zone taking place in a large floating structure such as Wing Fortress)

    Minimize playable characters: Limit the number of playable characters. It seems Sega has OVER 9000 playable Sonic characters these days. It's one thing if a few of them pop up occasionally as an NPC cameo, but the number of playable characters should be limited to about for or five at the absolute very most. Three of those preferably being the standard trio of Sonic, Knuckles, and Tails. Each respective character should also have in-game abilities that greatly affect game play, such as level paths that only certain characters could gain access to due to strategically placed obstacles that restrict who can and cannot pass.

    Superfluous gimmicks and character actions: Homing attacks really aren't necessary in a 2-D game. I can understand having them in the 3-D games, but even then it gets overused as an extremely repetitive way to navigate level obstacles the player is required to cross. The grinding ability is also overused. Weren't hedgehogs the only characters to grind in Sonic Adventure 2 and Sonic Advance 1? Suddenly, now everyone and their next door neighbor can grind a rail even without those stupid Soap shoes, and the rails appear in the most random and illogical places (any part of the Rush games that weren't a bottomless pit of doom were a grind rail, unless you were on a jet ski). Any special actions player characters perform should be implemented in such a way that game play is noticeably different for each character. For example, Knuckles couldn't jump as high as Sonic and Tails, but he could climb, glide, and auto-smash breakable walls, which opened up "Knuckles-specific" level paths only accessible to him.

    Multiple level paths: This is one thing that the 3-D games are sorely lacking in. You can't really diverge from the main level path too much, either because movement is downright restricted, or you experience death by Bottomless Pit of Doom. The 2-D games featured level designs with different paths that players could take depending on how they played the game and what character they picked.

    Good old-fashioned platforming elements: Enough with the "speed speed speed" formula. Mix things up with slower-paced obstacles and platforming sections to provide greater variety during game play. Different levels in the classic games were faster or slower paced than others.

    Optional in-game super forms / emerald collecting: Back in the Sonic & Knuckles era, one of the highlights (at least for me) was being able to obtain the super/hyper forms of Sonic, Knuckles, and Tails in S3&K. I didn't have to do it in order to beat the game (except to get the Doomsday level with Sonic), but it was fun for me, and players of the game could choose whether or not they wanted to try to collect the emeralds by playing the special stages. These days, the Chaos Emeralds are more like a DBZ-esque plot device. Collect all seven, beat the bad guy at the end of the game. Oh, and only hedgehogs and Blaze with her emerald copies have access to a super form. Oh yeah, and you can only play in that form for one level. On top of that, as far as hand-held games go, every super form level plays like a copy or rip-off S3&K's Doomsday.

    The "Real World" issue: In the classic games, and even the hand-helds, Robotnik/Eggman (which ever name you prefer) was the only human character in the game. The plot was simple. Race to the end of the level, hop on robots to destroy them and free the little critters inside. Beat the big bad boss at the end, and free more cute little critters. There really wasn't much questioning about why humanoid animals with special abilities existed. Sonic and Co. were existed, and accepted as "normal." In the modern games, suddenly (with the exception of Eggman) the player characters are the only non-humans in the game, with the exception of chao (oh dear god did I waste so much of my life just playing with chao) and the extinct echidna society. I'm not even going to get into the bullshit with the Sonic X anime series, since this is a game discussion. This may just be my own personal nitpick, but couldn't there at least have been a more even mix of human and non-human NPCs to make the existence of walking, talking anthropomorphic animals with extraordinary abilities more sensible for the in-game world.
     
  8. HeartAttack

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    <!--quoteo(post=358030:date=Oct 5 2009, 06:46 PM:name=Ross-Irving)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Ross-Irving @ Oct 5 2009, 06:46 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=358030">[​IMG]</a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Also, arbitrary purism "No rails! No homing attack! Vague good things like uh...make it fun!" Almost everyone is suggesting things that we know are wrong and are pretty obvious<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    That we know are "wrong"? Example, please. I'd like you to point out an opinion of mine on Sonic gameplay that I think is wrong, yet somehow seem to not think it's wrong...even though I, uh...think it's wrong? Or how 'bout not giving me an example, because I don't think anything I've mentioned here is "wrong", as it's all opinion. No ones opinion on what they think should or should not be in a Sonic game is wrong. Sometimes, a good game boils down to the creators simply removing the BS that they've added over the years - ie: in my opinion, the stupid ass grinding BS in all the 2D Sonic games now. Honestly, why add rails when the whole damned game is already on them?

    People wouldn't suggest things if they felt it were "wrong" to do so. That just makes absolutely no damned sense. I'm not gonna be over here like, "Get rid of the fucking grinding!!" if I actually LIKED it. Get what I'm saying?
     
  9. tonic41

    tonic41

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    Sonic game code name? sonic classic
    ok I get it there will not be any grinding( why would there be in most levels anyway) and not too much pits, but homing attack will be in it. but I will make ir just like 3D blast and I think im going to make a bomb sheid. anywhy what new can I add to a game based off sonic CD 3&Knuckles so it wont look like a hack. and thanks all.
     
  10. DimensionWarped

    DimensionWarped

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    <!--quoteo(post=357705:date=Oct 5 2009, 12:50 AM:name=HeartAttack)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (HeartAttack @ Oct 5 2009, 12:50 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=357705">[​IMG]</a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=357694:date=Oct 4 2009, 09:37 PM:name=DimensionWarped)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (DimensionWarped @ Oct 4 2009, 09:37 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=357694">[​IMG]</a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Originality has never once been the series' strong point.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    Can you elaborate? I'm trying to think of ways to validate that claim, and I'm drawing blanks.

    EDIT: I mean, honestly, the Sonic series is untouched in what it does. It's a platformer that focuses on speed and uses pinball mechanics - what other game besides Sonic is anything like Sonic? I mean...I guess if you take into consideration that, yes, pinball machines did exist prior to Sonic games, then you could kind of say that Sonic isn't original...but that would be just kind of dumb.
    <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    I'd point out iNinja, but no one played that game.
     
  11. Sonic Warrior TJ

    Sonic Warrior TJ

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    Grinding wouldn't be so bad if the mechanics were more physics based and the rails less frequent, a la Sonic Adventure 2. After that, excessive rails or not, there was very little to no skill required to grind (with Shadow actually being the biggest offender in my eyes, Unleashed in a close second). Remember, in SA2 you had to steer and crouch to keep your speed up, and if you went too slow you'd fall.
     
  12. Matwek

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    <!--quoteo(post=358160:date=Oct 6 2009, 02:19 PM:name=DimensionWarped)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (DimensionWarped @ Oct 6 2009, 02:19 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=358160">[​IMG]</a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=357705:date=Oct 5 2009, 12:50 AM:name=HeartAttack)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (HeartAttack @ Oct 5 2009, 12:50 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=357705">[​IMG]</a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=357694:date=Oct 4 2009, 09:37 PM:name=DimensionWarped)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (DimensionWarped @ Oct 4 2009, 09:37 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=357694">[​IMG]</a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Originality has never once been the series' strong point.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    Can you elaborate? I'm trying to think of ways to validate that claim, and I'm drawing blanks.

    EDIT: I mean, honestly, the Sonic series is untouched in what it does. It's a platformer that focuses on speed and uses pinball mechanics - what other game besides Sonic is anything like Sonic? I mean...I guess if you take into consideration that, yes, pinball machines did exist prior to Sonic games, then you could kind of say that Sonic isn't original...but that would be just kind of dumb.
    <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    I'd point out iNinja, but no one played that game.
    <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    I totally forgot about that game, been years.
    <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VPsARd5j54o&feature=related" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VPsARd5j54o...feature=related</a>
    change the combat lose the chain swinging and it could almost be a sort of sonic game

    EDIT: I had even forgotten there were bits where you get in a ball or something and roll down tubes
     
  13. phoenixwright7

    phoenixwright7

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    <!--quoteo(post=358188:date=Oct 6 2009, 09:03 AM:name=Sonic Warrior TJ)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Sonic Warrior TJ @ Oct 6 2009, 09:03 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=358188">[​IMG]</a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Grinding wouldn't be so bad if the mechanics were more physics based and the rails less frequent, a la Sonic Adventure 2. After that, excessive rails or not, there was very little to no skill required to grind (with Shadow actually being the biggest offender in my eyes, Unleashed in a close second). Remember, in SA2 you had to steer and crouch to keep your speed up, and if you went too slow you'd fall.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->


    The grinding in sonic adventure 2 pissed me off to no end, but maybe that's because I simply sucked at it?

    Grinding in general is just a boring mechanic if you ask me...
     
  14. HeartAttack

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    <!--quoteo(post=358160:date=Oct 6 2009, 06:19 AM:name=DimensionWarped)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (DimensionWarped @ Oct 6 2009, 06:19 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=358160">[​IMG]</a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=357705:date=Oct 5 2009, 12:50 AM:name=HeartAttack)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (HeartAttack @ Oct 5 2009, 12:50 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=357705">[​IMG]</a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=357694:date=Oct 4 2009, 09:37 PM:name=DimensionWarped)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (DimensionWarped @ Oct 4 2009, 09:37 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=357694">[​IMG]</a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Originality has never once been the series' strong point.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    Can you elaborate? I'm trying to think of ways to validate that claim, and I'm drawing blanks.

    EDIT: I mean, honestly, the Sonic series is untouched in what it does. It's a platformer that focuses on speed and uses pinball mechanics - what other game besides Sonic is anything like Sonic? I mean...I guess if you take into consideration that, yes, pinball machines did exist prior to Sonic games, then you could kind of say that Sonic isn't original...but that would be just kind of dumb.
    <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    I'd point out iNinja, but no one played that game.
    <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    Awesome. Once again dodging the point.

    Postcount ++!!!!!
     
  15. Tweaker

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    Hey buddy... if you're not going to show respect for fellow members or even make constructive replies, how about you just not post? This arrogant attitude of yours is pretty irritating.
     
  16. HeartAttack

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    Arrogant? How so? People telling someone how wrong their *OPINION* is, is what's arrogant. How does off-topic BS like how original Sonic is or not fly here, yet me defending other people from attacks like that is "arrogance"? Fine, I'll just exit the thread and leave Mr. Thinks-He's-Witty-But-Really-Isn't alone to cast his brilliance upon more unsuspecting members.
     
  17. In my opinion, the Sonic series’ biggest problem, at least in the most recent (post 2000) games has been over complicating of the story. One of the things that made the early Sonic games work was a simple story. Robotnik wants the emeralds, Sonic has to stop him. Even S3K wasn't a long complicated story. The other problem has been Robotnik's demotion of main villain to comedic villain over shadowed by the true final villain. Even Unleashed, which is a really fun game suffers from the same thing with the Dark Gaia nonsense.

    What would help make a really good Sonic game is for a simple story where Sonic has to stop Robotnik from taking over the world, launching the death egg or whatever. Throw Tails and Knuckles in and levels that are fun, fast and challenging and it would be a good solid game. Throwing in a bunch of new characters and a big storyline involving some ancient monster that Robotnik wants alive but which just ends up overpowering him and becoming the real final boss is becoming a tired concept. Make Robotnik in some huge mech as the final boss and it would be awesome. Just my view though.
     
  18. Tweaker

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    <!--quoteo(post=358318:date=Oct 6 2009, 05:29 PM:name=HeartAttack)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (HeartAttack @ Oct 6 2009, 05:29 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=358318">[​IMG]</a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Arrogant? How so? People telling someone how wrong their *OPINION* is, is what's arrogant. How does off-topic BS like how original Sonic is or not fly here, yet me defending other people from attacks like that is "arrogance"? Fine, I'll just exit the thread and leave Mr. Thinks-He's-Witty-But-Really-Isn't alone to cast his brilliance upon more unsuspecting members.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    First off, there is validity in debunking an opinion if it is based on improper or otherwise untrue factors. For example, if I like Sonic because I believe it to promote good Christian values and it does not promote those values, I have based an opinion off something that isn't true; ergo, it is not valid.

    What is arrogant about your post is how you're throwing around buzzwords like "dodging the point" and even throwing in the typical "postcount++;" bullshit, implying that you acknowledge putting absolutely no worth or effort into your response. If you don't have anything more than that to support your own point when you're trying to get it across in a thread, then chances are you either don't have as much of a point as you thought you did or you simply shouldn't post until you do. If you think you can defeat his point—or his supposed lack thereof—then feel free! But saying someone is "dodging the point" and not explaining how is completely useless. It also barely helps that in your last post you opted to throw around insulting labels, which shows that you're more apt to Ad Hominem than you are properly debunking a point.

    So, I reiterate—your arrogance is totally unnecessary. I also don't see how debating the originality of Sonic is off-topic, especially if someone claimed that Sonic was good because it was original—a claim that is apparently very much up for debate.
     
  19. HeartAttack

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    Seriously, go back and read my posts. I asked him to elaborate on how "originality has never been one of the series' strong points", because I honestly couldn't imagine how that were true. What was his reply? "I'd say iNinja but nobody's ever played that game". He was totally dodging the question because HE had no answer for it. I asked him a legit question because I was trying to think of ways Sonic blatantly ripped off other games and/or characters, but simply got no answer from him, just the same junk skipping around what I'm asking him. What got me angry is because there were 2 or 3 other questions I've asked him in the thread that he either skipped around or ignored completely.

    As you see, my point wasn't that there is no argument regarding Sonic's originality, but rather me trying to get him to make a point. Example again: Originality has never been one of the Sonic series' strong points". Ok. You're talking about supporting points - what about that? There's no support there, only baseless claims, and when I ask him about it I get called "arrogant". Ha.
     
  20. DimensionWarped

    DimensionWarped

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    In defense of myself, I never said someone's opinion was wrong. I was simply pointing out that to slam recent aspects of the series, such as characters or situations, on the basis of originality is a flawed criticism because the series has borrowed heavily from others since its origin.

    And while I may think I'm often witty, I don't expect that out of myself or others on a consistent basis and I certainly don't expect everyone to react to it in the same way. It's a little silly to get angry with someone for a single remark and then to hold their self-imposed title over their head and pretend they are trying to act on it. And even if I were by the way, someone who truly is witty realizes two things. First, everything you say can't be pure gold (and certainly not to everybody). Second, you can't hit the ball unless you swing the bat.

    And again, the Sonic Series isn't untouched in what it does and thats what I was responding to (since apparently some people consider a response that isn't elaborated upon to be the same thing as dodging an issue somehow). Plenty of people have taken a swing at concepts all over the series, whether its the physics that you could argue are inspired by pinball (or for that matter, just plain inspired by physics since Pinball is more a game inspired by natural physical interactions than physics are inspired by pinball) or simply a platformer that revolves around a fast character. And believe it or not, Sonic wasn't the first to try most of the stuff it did. It shone more for the extremely large amount of polish that went into it than for any amount of new concepts it tried.
     
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