But that's the issue with the article. 1. We know what the E3 trailer showed, which includes not only Sonic but also Knuckles, Eggman and Shadow. So the part where they write: already raises some red flags because we know that's not true. Yes, Sonic is the one with the most gameplay but the others do make an appearance so they weren't just told this. Plus the screenshots they received. 2. That same article also says This is what I meant in my last post. The way this is written it just says, hey we know Sega is including these other characters because this is what they have right now. But nowhere do they say that it's confirmed that these are the only characters appearing in the game. And they didn't even know how else they were going to be used since again they didn't have all the details. This is what I mean when I say there's a distinction. And again, from that GameSpot article from December 2000 we know Tails was already in the game by that time and they were reporting still having the release date as February 2001. This is why I say asking the developers directly might be the only way to settle this.
The other mag literally says that there will be only 3 characters (Sonic, Knuckles and Eggman). Where would they be pulling this from if not official statements/materials? If they meant that those are the only characters shown/announced so far, they would have said so instead. Game journalists don't just randomly assume that what's shown in a preview is all there will be in an upcoming game.
I just provided an article which sources Yuji Naka. Actually, if you read the UK DCM article, which would have been published in November of 2000, they said they expect a summer release (i.e. not february) but are hopeful they still might release it earlier. So by the time that Gamespot article had come out, Sonic Team had already publicly stated they expected the game in Summer, not February. This is from the holiday issue of ODCM, issue 10, which coincided with a special christmas issue separate from the december issue. In this issue, they talk about why they didn't include coverage of Sonic Adventure 2 in Issue 7, and they claim they had been told the release date was pushed back. So again, by the time that Gamespot article came out, other publications were already talking about the delay: And yet this issue would have been the same time UK DCM was released. Note how the ODCM says they were supposed to be given interviews and stuff, but they never happened because of the delay. That would support my theory that the interview they talked about in UK DCM was indeed at the ECTS, and I would wager they were using the same material from E3. Seems to me they delayed the game first, *then* decided to add more characters. Not that they talked about new characters any time before the delay was mentioned. I can't find a single reference to more than those 3 characters (and shadow, although they dont say he's playable) before the delay was mentioned. So why would Gamestop still have the february release date? Read all the things being posted, Sega didn't know when it would release. They gave dates ranging from Christmas 2000, March 2001, Summer 2001, and Christmas 2001, and would say things like "it might be released earlier." So I think Gamespot just didn't update their release date until Sega had a firm, solid date later on. This is ODCM's February 2001 coverage of SA2, the first time i've seen anybody mention more than 3 playable characters, and it sounds like it's up in the air. They say that only Sonic, Robotnik, and Knuckles have been confirmed, but *5* other characters are being considered to return. They are pretty explicit that this is the first update they've heard since E3. Think about 5 characters.... shadow, rogue, tails... amy? Dark amy? To me this sounds like the time when they decided to add more characters, and how many more they were adding was still being decided.
There You're proving my point about how information from back then, especially from certain outlets, can be contradictory and unreliable. First, there’s no direct quote from Naka explicitly saying, “Yes, these are the only characters that will appear in the game.” This already raises questions about where the info is coming from and what the source actually said. Second, while we do have a direct quote from him stating they were aiming for a summer release, with the possibility of an earlier launch, that was for the November issue. The GameSpot info, however, came later, following the November event in San Francisco, where they supposedly spoke to a member of Sonic Team. Magazines were written and typeset in advance, so by the time GameSpot saw the demo in November, Tails was already in the game. However, that information wasn’t reflected in the UK magazine, which was published the same month. They also left the November event thinking the release was still set for February. What I’m trying to say—both to you and Blue Spikeball—is that while it’s fine to use these outlets as a starting point, it was a bit of a wild west back then. Their reliability was questionable, with official info often mixed with speculation, misinterpretations, or outright falsehoods. You can’t fully confirm what really happened based just on that. Someone having the E3 2000 press kit would be a much more reliable source for understanding what Sega was actually saying at the time.
We know where the info in those articles came from. They came from interviews with Yuji Naka. Do you really think Sega would let both of their official game magazines run incorrect information in two separate issues spanning months apart, both of which were privy to closed door access (I'll note: EGM and Gamepro had ZERO coverage of Sonic Adventure 2 until 2001 because they were not granted access to these previews, meaning sega was vetting who saw and wrote about what), one of which directly quotes Yuji Naka? That the person would assume those are the only 3 characters and not ask Naka that question directly when he's talking explicitly about how characters play? You're not going to get a quote from Naka saying "By the way, these are the only 3 playable characters" because that's not how someone would talk, nor would someone write an article quoting someone that way. There's now way to work that kind of quote into such an article, it's more natural to just relay the information. We've seen two different magazines across two different continents at two different trade shows write the same information, both of which were talking directly to Sonic Team. This is as direct of a quote as you're going to get. You're of course free to believe otherwise, but "prove a negative" is hardly compelling.
So what's the implication here? That the journalist that specifically reported SA2 was going to have only 3 characters might have pulled that out of nowhere for no reason, despite having talked with Naka himself? Honest question.
Here is a preview from Game Informer, which got into the closed door E3 access. They confirm Sega gave out a press release kit, although it was brief, and from it they know "there are new characters whose adventures you can play." The article doesn't mention who is playable, so we are left to wonder: is Robotnik the new character? Or do they mean shadow, rogue, and tails? If so, why didn't any of the other previews mention new characters if they got the same press release kit:
As I said, there's a difference between saying these are the characters in the game that we're showing right now, and these are the only characters in the game. They kept a lot of specific stuff to themselves and only revealed info here and there like the Sonic Team Festival thing they did with the screenshots. People forget Shadow's and Rouge info was unofficially confirmed/leaked through these screenshots in February 2001 before Sega got to it sometime later. CoolJerk just posted that screenshot above about Game Informer mentioning new characters during the E3 coverage. Which again brings me to how unreliable those magazines can sometimes be. Game reporting back in those days was less stable when it came to quality. Why did they specify new playable characters when Shadow at the time was the only one if supposedly Rouge didn't exist. Did they really count Eggman as new making it two at least? Why didn't the other outlets report this if supposedly Sega was working with them. Did GI just mess up? This is why I said that if the user Cooljerk mentioned has that press kit is better to post that.
The mag specifically stated that there will be only 3 characters: The journalist assuming that the characters currently shown are the only characters planned for the game would be him pulling information out of nowhere. I know it's easy to assume that game journalists were extremely ignorant, unreliable and error-prone back then. But believe me, they knew what a preview is at the very least. They knew perfectly well that a preview shows just part of what will be in the game, not everything.
I'm talking about the Game Informer E3 article that doesn't specify character numbers and just says "new characters whose adventures you can play."
Then you're failing to address my original question, because I was referring specifically to the mag article I just quoted.
I'm trying to find a source for this claim that Sega added Tails because of public backlash and finding absolutely nothing. Something like that seems like it would have to come during a small blurb update or something, maybe in a news section of a magazine. However it seems very few magazines were actually given access to SA2 updates. I know US ODCM did, UK ODCM did, Game Informer did, and I think Edge did as well but I can't be sure. GamePro and EGM explicitly did not have any coverage of SA2 until 2001, all they would report on was Sonic Shuffle. If there ever was going to be a source for such a quote, I'd imagine it would come during an announcement of a delay or when they announced new characters in the first place. But I've been going month by month for all the publications I can find and don't see any such claim. The only other thing I could think of would maybe it was a famitsu interview or something, but sadly all the issues from the particular span of months that encompass SA2's development are missing online. I'm going to guess this claim that they were added "because of public backlash" is 100% made up, not least of which I don't feel like Sonic Team really paid attention to internet chatter back then. The other thing I could think of would be maybe to pour through usenet posts. Game Informer's next update on SA2 after the last thing I posted was in December 2000, where they explicitly call Robotnik a "new playable character." Interestingly I found a Game Informer update where they speculate the upcoming characters after confirming Sonic, Knuckles, and Robotnik. This is around the same time the other mag speculated 5 characters. They speculate both Tails and Amy as part of the upcoming characters. From the looks of it, Game Informer had more updates on SA2 than any other magazine, which makes sense given how GI really pushed the dreamcast in those days. This is in February 2001, lining up with the release of the single stage demo. IMO in the absence of word of mouth quote, the evidence that Tails, Rogue, and Shadow weren't playable until later in development is much more compelling than the 'reasonable doubt' scenarios. We know Sonic played Shadows levels originally. We know multiple publications walked away from closed door interviews with Sonic team under the impression that only 3 characters were playable. We know Tails' gameplay is called "Eggwalker." The counter is "what if they were misinformed" is something you can't ever disprove without specifically speaking to development staff, and even then we've seen how they lie about Shadow's origins (eg Vegeta). I feel confident enough to say I believe the claim. If nothing else, these are the most definitive answers to "where did these claims source from?" The answer is "two entirely different magazines writing about closed door sessions with Sonic Team." That's factually the answer. To me, that doesn't seem like something to completely discount or treat like a youtube comment or something, it definitely has a bit more credibility than some completely random claim from an absolute nobody. What I don't believe is that they decided to bring in the other characters because of internet backlash or whatever. It seems more likely to me that the hero/dark parallel paths were born from the aborted remains of the supposed branching path system.
Well that's the thing the reporters in those outlets were saying what Sega was willing to show at that point in time. We didn't even get Shadow's name during E3 and it wasn't revealed till the February leak because Sega/Sonic Team wanted to keep things secret. It doesn't confirm what was happening behind the scenes and the game was a work in progress and even in those articles it says they don't have the full details of what's going down with the ones that were confirmed. It doesn't confirm or deny if they were working on the content for Tails and Rouge behind the scenes but just didn't have anything to show for them yet. EGM was actually going to preview SA2 during their June 2000 issue, but Sega decided not to because they felt the game wasn't ready to be shown yet and Shuffle took its place. Like I said previous posts back, I just think that what they showed during that E3 with the behind the scenes trailer and magazine shots was what they had because they were falling behind being a smaller team. And yes, sometimes they would mess up or not do a good job with even previews. Just look at some of the official Nintendo magazines making up stuff for games like Ocarina of Time in previews. There's one here in this thread with that Game Informer E3 article. Only one that mentions new characters and that are playable with their own story? Who are these new characters? Did they get confused or did just assumed more characters were coming? Or were they the only ones that got the scoop or were paying attention?
At the end of the E3 trailer we actually do see shadow in sky rail, he just stands there as the camera moves around him but still he's in sky rail. The entire trailer is also flashing "hero/dark "original/fake" imagery building upto Shadow's reveal at the end of the trailer. There's also the bit with"Master Emerald" "Highspeed Escape" "World Conquest" representing Knuckles, Sonic and Eggman. This alone suggests that these were the only playable characters. But this is also done with Shadow. The text reads "Revenge", "Ultimate Life" and other things clearly hinting at Shadow before finally revealing him in a similar way to the other characters that we know were definitely playable. The entire trailer is building up to him, it'd make no sense to just have him in random gameplay footage before the end of the trailer. I'm pretty sure Shadow at least was always planned to be playable and at this point the hero/dark thing seems pretty set in stone. I'm still not sure if hero story was just Sonic/Knuckles and dark story as Shadow/Eggman initially with Rouge and Tails being later additions or whatever but I'm pretty convinced Shadow was always going to be playable.
This may get buried under Where Was Tails Debate #465 but about the effort difference: DC's 2P is unpolished in general, like you can still find a life box in Sky Rail for one thing. It's been years since I looked into it in depth though. They also planned Green Hill to unlock for 2P with 180 Emblems and it technically does (It's a hidden option at the bottom of the list, pressing A denies you without 180 Emblems iirc) but the menu just doesn't allow scrolling that far down. Other than that, it's fully functional and with its own start pose locations and everything. FWIW about Amy the Chao Doctor has lines for how Chao like/dislike her. Not sure what's going on there because afaik she works the same as the other reskins and is still Sonic internally.
How about some japanese coverage of SA2 from the december issue of JP Dreamcast Magazine, this is covering the trial version of Sonic Adventure 2 and mentions a press release going along with it in japan: It says that the document they provided calls Robotnik the new playable character, and explicitly says the document doesn't make mention of any other new playable characters. It is saying this in response to the pics of the black hedgehog because they wonder his role. The top of the article claims in the 21st century, Sonic, Knuckles, and Eggman are going make the entire world shake. They also have a small interview with Sonic team back a few issue prior where they discuss the E3 reveal. Apparently it was a last second decision to show it at E3, and Yuji Naka says they were super early in development and are "working on the main part" at the moment. One thing else to point out: this japanese article is covering the same thing the game informer update in december 2000 was covering, and presumably had similar press releases. This is very interesting because both magazines, despite being in different languages, contain very similar image headings and word phrasings, especially related to Robotnik. For example, both articles have headlines that are incredulous at the idea that Robotnik is playable, in engllish: "Could it be?! Dr. Robotnik a new playable character!!" and in japanese "Egguman ga preiyaa cyara ni?!" ("Eggman is a player character in this?!"), and both express that he *may* be a playable character acting coy... only in other parts of the article for them to definitely claim he's going to be playable, in japanese "nijyuu sekkio o mae ni, sonniku ga nakeruzu ga shoshite egguman ga zen sekai o kanshin saseru!" (Before the 21st century, Sonic, Knuckles, and Eggman will make the whole world shake!), while in english a lot more blunt: "Sonic, Knuckles, and Eggman are all playable characters". Note they call him Eggman, not Robotnik. What does that indicate to me? They're repackaging stuff straight out of the press release kit they got, and they produced the same one in english and japanese. And that's my guess who we got two magazines in america and europe saying the same "only 3 characters are playable" stuff. It indicates to me that Sega is dictating the wording of these previews. There is a saying in statistics: Once is happenstance, twice is coincidence, and thrice is conspiracy. It means that the same error "mistakenly" occurring three times at random is statically impossible without influence. It's used to track espionage, but the sentiment is the same: if three magazines now are all saying they don't think any other characters are going to be playable, all on different continents, at different time periods, and one in an entirely different language, they are getting that information from somewhere, not inventing it out of the blue on their own. It is not a misunderstanding. Someone told them that. The common link between all 3 of these magazine articles? They got press releases from Sonic team and spoke to yuji naka directly at special events. Well now this is very interesting, this is an interview with Yuji Naka in Famitsu talking about the Trail version of Sonic adventure 2, the same version they were talking about in the JPN DC magazine. This interview would have been just a few days after the last article. What is interesting is Yuji Naka here says, at the very end of december of 2000, that the game is basically finished: SA2 wouldn't release for 6 more months after this interview. This is roughly 6 months after the initial E3 reveal. It would appear that what he called basically finished wound up being merely the midpoint of development.
You're still not answering my question. Why are we dismissing the journalist who spoke with Naka and reported that Sonic, Knuckles and Eggman were going to be the only playable characters? Not that those were the only characters known so far, but that they will be the only ones. He specifically brings up how this means SA2 will have less characters than SA1. Are we assuming that he's pulling that out of nowhere? That he assumed that was the case just because those were the only playable characters shown at that point? Because a preview showing just certain characters is no reason to assume that they will be the only characters in the final game, and journalists knew that full well. People knew the definition of preview back then, it wasn't discovered afterward.
The multiple-paths version of SA2 where it'd make sense to only have three playable characters was probably out the window by E3 2000. "We're still working on the main part" could have easily meant they were still working on other playable characters, and these reporters could've just had the teaser trailer reiterated at them since that's clearly all Sonic Team was willing to show the public anyway. We know Terios and Nails were conceived of in 1999 and we know SA2 was made under extreme crunch by a dozen people. If SA2 really was "finished" in Dec 2000 then it was probably a Zelda 64 situation where what they had finished so far didn't feel like a full game and was fundamentally restructured in the last few months. Either way the Chao doctor having lines for Amy is super peculiar. She really seems to have had some kind of cut roll and that's more intriguing to me at this point.
you know, for years now you've been complaining about this but you don't add an automerge function. Other xenforo boards do this. If it bothers you so much, fix the problem at the source. Otherwise, no, I don't really see the difference between a bunch of posts made at 4 in the morning back to back when no other posts were made during that time on the entire board and editing it. It's functionally the same. here: https://xenforo.com/community/tags/auto-merge/ problem solved. Let me explain WHY I multipost -- I write posts long form which takes actual time, and I rethink my thoughts multiple times while posting. While doing this, it's very common for people to post between my edits, so they get lost, when a reply would be more appropriate. So the obvious solution is to check to see if someone has posted before I hit submit on a new post. Except doing that has resulted in me losing posts that have taken 20-30 minutes to type in the past. So I don't want to risk it. It's just simpler, and much more effective to post as I write. The board should handle the merging, there doesn't need to be a manual post janitor, and people shouldn't have to keep checking back to make sure their post isn't going to be double. Just add the auto-merge and make everyone's life easier. The reason given previously was that there was a problem with media limits when automerging, except other xenforo boards handle that just fine. Auto-merge 2.2 has had a patch for exactly this since 2021.
