What was the deal with SA2's Bonus Characters?

Well I've got some intangible speculation if that works. You know how Amy was the first character developed after Sonic when they were making SA1? I wonder if they did something similar with Amy for SA2 and then just never found a place for her when they started actually making the game. I would assume her extra multiplayer flair is evidence that she was supposed to have a bigger role in the main game, but I don't think there's any actual evidence for that in the game files etc. Maybe SA2 was meant to have the same 2P character selection as SA2B but they couldn't finish the alternate characters in time so made them unlockables instead.

 

Not sure what kazz means about SA1, but in SA2, Amy's character ID is slotted in right after the eight main playable characters (Tails and Eggman in and out of their mechs are separate characters), but before Super Sonic and Super Shadow. The remaining multiplayer characters are listed after an unused slot, in the same order as the 1P characters. This could be an indication that Amy was made well before the other 2P characters, possibly even having a role in the story. Or maybe they reshuffled the character IDs during development and it's meaningless.

Disclaimer: These names were all invented by me and are in no way official.

Code (Text):

1. enum Characters
2. {
3.     Characters_Sonic,
4.     Characters_Shadow,
5.     Characters_Tails,
6.     Characters_Eggman,
7.     Characters_Knuckles,
8.     Characters_Rouge,
9.     Characters_MechTails,
10.     Characters_MechEggman,
11.     Characters_Amy,
12.     Characters_SuperSonic,
13.     Characters_SuperShadow,
14.     Characters_B, // unused
15.     Characters_MetalSonic,
16.     Characters_ChaoWalker,
17.     Characters_DarkChaoWalker,
18.     Characters_Tikal,
19.     Characters_Chaos
20. };

 

https://tcrf.net/Prerelease:Sonic_Adventure_(Dreamcast)

I just realized I misread this weird paragraph and absorbed it as fact. I forgot about the character ID thing which is definitely more significant. Can't imagine the rest of the 2P-only characters would be neatly sorted at the bottom if it were randomly shuffled so I think Amy's placement with the main six is relevant, even if it was just for testing purposes. I've wondered the same about mechless Tails considering his weirdly-elaborate Chao Garden moveset as well as how early he appears on the list.

 

[SA2] Mech_Eggman (Index 7 / Dark3) -> [SA2] Mech_Tails (Index 6 / Hero3)It is reasonable to assume that they just reused the character slots/positioning from SA1 in developing SA2? There were 7 story slots in that game, and 6 that transitioned into SA2 with Big's gameplay cut. It's interesting that the slots for playable characters seem to be Character followed by a clone in the internal order, which I'll denote below.

EDIT:

Looking over the SCHG for SA1 https://info.sonicretro.org/SCHG:Sonic_Adventure/Object_Editing#Special_Objects, the way characters are handled uses ID values as part of the scene construction, ending with one of the codes below:

• S - Sonic
• EG - Eggman (Unused)
• M - Miles/Tails
• K - Knuckles
• TI - Tikal (Unused)
• A - Amy
• E - E-102 Gamma
• B - Big
• L - Last/Super Sonic

Clearly in SA1, there's a dynamic where the models by virtue of existing in cutscenes are similarly considered play actors though ultimately go unused for gameplay as EG and TI indicate. Also, the character animation index for Sonic includes the additions for Super Sonic and later Metal Sonic in SADX. https://info.sonicretro.org/SCHG:Sonic_Adventure/Animation_Lists

Theoretical SA1 Slot -> SA2 Slot -> SA2 Clone Progression by SA2 Index #
​

1. [SA1] Sonic / S -> [SA2] Sonic (Index 0 / Hero1)
2. [SA1] Sonic / S -> [SA2] Shadow (Index 1 / Dark1)
3. [SA1] Eggman (Unused)* / EG -> [SA2] Eggman (Index 2 / Chao Garden only)*
4. [SA1] Tails / M -> [SA2] Tails (Index 3 / Chao Garden only)*
5. [SA1] Knuckles / K -> [SA2] Knuckles (Index 4 / Hero2)
6. [SA2] Knuckles (Index 4 / Hero2) -> [SA2] Rogue (Index 5 / Dark2)
7. Either:
   
   1. [SA1] E-102 Gamma / E -> [SA2] Mech_Tails (Index 6 / Hero3)
   2. [SA1] E-102 Gamma / E -> [SA2] Mech_Eggman (Index 7 / Dark3)
8. Either:
   1. [SA2] Mech_Tails (Index 6 / Hero3) -> [SA2] Mech_Eggman (Index 7 / Dark3)
      
   2. [SA2] Mech_Eggman (Index 7 / Dark3) -> [SA2] Mech_Tails (Index 6 / Hero3)
9. [SA1] E-102 Gamma / E -> [SA2] Mech_Eggman (Index 7 / Dark3)
10. [SA1] Amy / A -> [SA2] Amy (Index 8 / Cutscene and Bonus Skin)
11. CUT: [SA1] Big / B (Cutscene Model recycled for Easter Eggs)
12. [SA1] Super Sonic / L -> [SA2] Super Sonic (Index 9 / Last Story)
13. [SA1] Super Sonic / L -> [SA2] Super Shadow (Index 10 / Last Story)
14. [SA2] Sonic (Index 0 / Hero1) -> [SA2] Metal Sonic (Index 11 / Bonus Skin)
15. Either:
    1. [SA2] Mech_Tails (Index 6 / Hero3) -> Dark Chao Walker (Index 12 / Bonus Skin)
    2. [SA2] Mech_Eggman (Index 7 / Dark3) -> Dark Chao Walker (Index 12 / Bonus Skin)
16. Either:
    1. [SA2] Mech_Tails (Index 6 / Hero3) -> Chao Walker (Index 13 / Bonus Skin)
    2. [SA2] Mech_Eggman (Index 7 / Dark3) -> Chao Walker (Index 13 / Bonus Skin)
17. Either:
    1. [SA1] Tikal (Unused)* / TI -> [SA2] Tikal (Index 14 / Bonus Skin)
    2. [SA2] Knuckles (Index 4 / Hero2) -> [SA2] Tikal (Index 14 / Bonus Skin)
18. [SA2] Knuckles (Index 4 / Hero2) -> [SA2] Chaos (Index 15 / Bonus Skin)

 

Worth noting that even though the character IDs place Tails first (except for the Super characters, all even numbers are Hero characters and all odd numbers are Dark characters, starting from 0), the object name for the mech gameplay is "EggWalker", implying that the gameplay was made for Eggman first.

 

It makes sense that it would be made for Eggman first, if the popular belief that Sonic, Knuckles and Eggman were originally going to be the only playable characters is true.

I don't suppose people have ever confirmed it with the devs?

 

It would make sense then that E-102 -> EggWalker and derivatives follow.

 

I do suspect that Character Animation ID might have some clues here too:

https://info.sonicretro.org/SCHG:Sonic_Adventure_2/Character_Animation_IDs#Common

The animation banks cover the following character slots in order:

1. Sonic-type characters
2. Mech-type characters
3. Knuckles-type characters
4. Tails (no mech)
5. Eggman (no Mech)
6. Super Sonic-type characters

 

I don’t recall anyone confirming it. The rumour originated from the first video trailer of SA2 I believe? And then we got screenshot of Sonic in Sky Rail.

more info:

https://forums.sonicretro.org/index...-originally-not-meant-to-appear-in-sa2.41417/

BlackHole made some really good points about Tails. Would it be possible, that Amy was a playable character and had „episodic” gameplay like for example - breaking Sonic free from Prison Island?

 

I recall in the big thread of prerelease info it seemed like there was "light vs dark" kind of theming even in very early design drafts, so unless they envisioned Knuckles as a neutral character, I think the 3-vs-3 nature was planned pretty early in design. Certainly not surprising that Eggman was the walker mech template over Tails: after all, a similar Eggman mech was Tails' final boss in that game...and maybe it's fair under similar narrative reasoning for Tails to have designed a new morph for the Tornado on similar principles.

It's possible that no counterpart character *stages* were initially planned and that they were initially designed only as playable in 2P mode, but at least as soon as they arrived at the idea of a 2P mode (which was written about in the earliest EGM preview of the game) the second set of playable characters was an inevitability.

The best piece of supporting evidence I can find for the claim that Sonic, Knuckles, and Eggman were the initial story routes is that for about 2/3 of the game Knuckles is doing his own thing with collecting the master emerald rather than being part of the Sonic-Amy-Tails story. But Tails and Shadow in particular not being part of the story wouldn't have made sense, and if you're going to add both of them to the story and have them be playable, you may as well have some stages to put them in.

I'd buy that Radical Highway and Sky Rail were intended as Sonic stages but got moved to Shadow in order to make sure the game had enough dark-story stages and they ran out of time to make original(ish) ones for Shadow.

 

You say it like Tails being part of the story automatically makes it natural for him to be playable, but I don't think anyone would have expected Tails to have Gamma-esque gameplay in a core Sonic game before SA2 came out.

I'd say it makes sense that after they decided to keep just three of SA1's play styles, they would have as the playable cast just the characters they were attributed to in that game. Speed = Sonic. Treasure hunting = Knuckles. Gamma is dead, so Eggman, being his creator and a guy known to do all his fighting in mechs, is the next most logical choice for his gameplay.

The number of play styles and playable characters being reduced from SA1's whopping six also goes with the original plans for SA2 to have branching stories, to avoid over-scope. I mean, I know Sonic Team games have a tendency of being overambitious in their early planning stages, but...

 

When you think about it, the level distribution doesn’t quite make sense. Radical Highway feels like a level specifically designed for Sonic, meant to give Tails time to escape in Mission Street. The fight against Big Foot takes place at night—why? The encounter with Shadow also happens at night. The cutscenes don’t fully align with the levels, and as someone rightly pointed out earlier, the music for Radical Highway and Sky Rail doesn’t thematically fit Shadow—it feels more suited to Sonic.

I guess it’s possible that Rouge, Tails, and Shadow either weren’t planned as playable characters initially or that the decision to focus on them came later in development. This would explain why Shadow ended up reusing Sonic’s stages.

What intrigues me the most right now is how the story was originally structured and whether Amy was ever planned to have a playable segment.

• Could Amy have been playable in Metal Harbor or had a level where she rescues Sonic instead of Tails?

• Could Shadow’s White Jungle have originally been tied to his escape from GUN?


And so on.

 

From what Sonic Team has said, the original playable characters were supposed to be Sonic, Knuckles, and Robotnik, so I don't think that quite lines up.

 

I just noticed people have been asking for a while where the claim that Sonic Adventure 2 was going to have only Robotnik, Knuckles, and Sonic came from. I'm here to tell you all: It came from Official Dreamcast Magazine in the October 2000 issue, the same place the screenshots of Knuckles swimming came from:



The reporting comes from the E3 reveal where the info was coming from Sega themselves.

EDIT: And how can we tell that this wasn't just misreported? Because UK Dreamcast Magazine -- written by entirely different people -- independently claimed they heard the same thing from Sega in their December issue.

 

I wonder what the stage order would have been. Imagine playing as Eggman for the first stage, followed by Sonic but in Radical Highway, then followed by Knuckles.

Also, the story seems to told in partly nonlinear order at times in the released game.

 

One thing that has always been weird about SA2's story for me: Sonic is being chased by GUN and is captured at the beginning because he's confused with Shadow. But Sonic's story takes place in the day. Shadow shows up at the city at night, after Sonic has already been captured. We seen Shadow show up right when Sonic is finishing his boss fight. So how could Gun have confused Sonic with Shadow before Shadow even arrived? It makes more sense if Radical Highway was Act 2 of Sonic's campaign, so it would be implied Shadow was there during the day, not showed up at night. It would also transition into the boss better.

 

Yeah, Radical Highway seems like a logical Sonic level to follow up on City Escape, if the player chooses to have Sonic fight and run from GUN instead of giving himself in. That path of the branched story might have led to it, the other (giving in) to Metal Harbor.

Nice. I think this confirms it.

 

It’s nice to have that information, but there’s a caveat.

I can’t speak for everyone, but when I want to know who first said that only Sonic, Knuckles, Eggman, and Shadow were playable, I want to know exactly who from Sega said it and what they actually said.

For example, that article mentions the characters’ roles remain a mystery, speculates on a few possibilities, and concludes by saying it might take time to know the specifics.

There’s a significant difference between Sega saying, “These are the only playable characters in the game,” and “These are the only ones we’re showing for now.”

It doesn’t help that magazines from that era—official ones included—sometimes misreported, speculated, or even outright fabricated information. I remember around that E3, some magazines claimed that Station Square and Mystic Ruins were returning because of City Escape and Green Forest footage.

Adding to the mystery is the rumor that Tails and Rouge were included due to backlash over the trailer. Where did that originate? My question is: would Sonic Team even have had the time—given their resources—to tweak the story, levels, voice lines, and more after June 2000, and still go gold in time for a June 2001 release?

This GameSpot December 2000 article mentions Tails, but no Rouge, but has a February 2001 release date which complicates things. Were they going to have 5 characters and kept on pushing the release date to add Rouge?

What happened that they were comfortable to say "oh yeah this is going to be ready in two months from now" to actually we're pushing the release date. Miscommunication within Sega? The game wasn't ready? Magazines taking a leap of faith and just saying that?

Personally, I’ve always felt they simply showed what they could at E3, but that the 3v3 format and characters were set from the start. At least from the few stuff we have of the behind the scenes I just think they were just way behind but more due to the smaller team and not changing stuff at the last minute.

Ultimately, this might be a question only someone involved in the game’s production can answer definitively.

I think within the story is not that confusing.

-Eggman attacks Prison Island and releases Shadow.
-Shadow defeats Hot Shot and escapes.
-G.U.N. captures Sonic, mistaking him for Shadow.
-Sonic escapes, leading to an all-day chase.
-Shadow reaches the city, breaks into a government-owned bank, and steals a Chaos Emerald.
-Shadow is pursued by authorities.
-Sonic and Shadow cross paths.
-Sonic is captured again.
-During a cutscene, Tails mentions that news reports accuse Sonic of destroying a military facility (Eggman and Shadow's earlier actions) and robbing a bank (Shadow's Radical Highway chase). In both the English and Japanese recaps, Sonic states that G.U.N. troops accused him of deserting a military facility.

The only wrinkles are deciding if G.U.N. were all over Sonic because some of them didn't know about Project Shadow so they went after Sonic really thinking it was him, if they were using Sonic as an excuse to keep the lid on the project, or a combination of both.

The other is if G.U.N. and law enforcement lost sight of Sonic for a moment and that's when they saw Shadow break out of the bank, or if at one point in the night they were dummies and they were chasing both hedgehogs at the same time.

Not denying the possibility that some of Sonic's stages were moved over to Shadow, but the way Iizuka mentions that he had plans for him included a spin off game since SA2 makes me think that Shadow was always going to be playable and that they had stages for him planned out.

But again a good question to ask them when getting the chance.

 

About those claims that the game would only have Sonic, Robotnik, and Knuckles, that supposedly happened at E3, so that was early May of 2000. SA2 didn't release until June of 2001, so man this was from over a year before the game released. So this info was being reported on extremely early in the games development, not someone being retrospective much later. As in, they weren't told "this was our original plans but we changed them," but rather documented Sega's original plans as they said them, and that's how we know it changed. Pretty wild.

That's not what they said in the quote. They said specifically that only Sonic was shown, and that they were *told* about Knuckles and Robotnik. So they weren't being shown all that was there, they were talking about things they hadn't shown.

Considering the reporting from both US ODCM and UK ODCM, both of which were covering the same event, and how E3s typically go, these comments probably come from a product information sheet they'd hand out at these kinds of shows with a bunch of product bullet points for PR. If we could find people who were at E3 2000 and see what sort of materials Sega handed out, we might find this actually in writing.

EDIT: An example of a Press Sheet from E3 2000 from Capcom:



EDIT Two: It appears Scarred Sun has a copy of the E3 2000 press kit, I'll reach out.

EDIT Three: Interesting, this E3 press kit has no mention of Sonic Adventure 2 at all, which is bizarre: https://segaretro.org/images/7/75/E32000_Dreamcast_Games.pdf

If you are showing off a game at E3, you 100% *DEFINITELY* have a press kit for that game with the bullet points, so there must be some Sonic Adventure 2 press kit floating around out there.

EDIT Four: here are screenshots apprarently from the SA2 press release from E3:

https://www.sonicstadium.org/galler...dreamcast-press-kit-screenshot-2000/?browse=1

This confirms only Sonic was shown off in screenshots. BUT it's interesting that the Knuckles screenshot in the water shown in ODCM isn't in this group, meaning they must have gotten additional materials between E3 and September when that issue came out (october issues came out in september).

EDIT five: apparently there are more screenshots if you scroll and you do eventually see the knuckles swimming screenshots. Which is a direct contradiction of the ODCM page saying only Sonic was shown. Let me go look at the UK DCM again to see what they say.

K so here is UK DCM, they are claiming that Yuji Naka directly told them about SA2 in a one on one chat in london:



They directly quote both "Sonic Team" and "Yuji Naka" at various points, although the claim about only Sonic, Knuckles, and Robotnik being playable is not a quote. However this is a second, completely different source saying the same thing from an interview with Sonic Team. We know from these quotes that Yuji Naka was there, so it's pretty safe to assume whatever information they were getting was not from minor hosts not in the know. I would wager they came directly from those closed door presentations from Sonic Team themselves, and multiple publications heard it.

I'm trying to look up things which would have had Sonic Team and Yuji Naka in London in 2000. Best I can tell would be ECTS 2000, which was September, so 4 months after E3. I would wager they would bring the same stuff they had at E3 to this new show, although that's just conjecture. If they did, that would roughly line up with the december issue of UKDCM since it would have released in November.