What is a story but a miserable pile of etc etc etc

Discussion in 'General Sonic Discussion' started by Roller, Mar 14, 2017.

  1. Speeps

    Speeps

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    You're right - Metal Sonic's not a flawless argument because Fighters and R cause problems. Those can be considered to be on the same level as Mario Kart in canon though, so it's not too big a deal.

    I don't think Metal Sonic not having a fight with Sonic is a way of saying he's inferior to Mecha Sonic - the attacks Metal Sonic does have (a boost and a shield) are a lot more advanced than what Mecha is shown with. Mecha Sonic also needs to wait a lot of time before actually attacking and it leaves him open to attacks, yet Metal Sonic doesn't need to do anything of the sort and can actually attack while moving.
    If the Mecha Sonic in Death Egg Zone was just an improvisation or a way to stall Sonic, why is Eggman watching the fight just outside the room when he has that really big Death Egg Robot sitting in the back?

    No it doesn't. That means he created the smaller and more advanced Metal Sonic and two big clunky Mecha Sonics - that's like a PS4 and two Ataris.
    The Mecha Sonic in 3K you could definitely argue for being a prototype though, considering it's thrown in with a bunch of old machines and left behind after the events of the game.

    I really like the idea of Eggman slowly getting closer to his own robot Sonic as the Classic series goes down, going from a loud and simplistic S2 Mecha Sonic to a robot that's even capable of emulating Sonic's finger-wagging. I think the the Death Egg plot fits perfectly as being the point that made the world first notice Sonic as a hero, which attracts Amy to him and in turn allow Sonic CD to happen. There's a kid in Station Square who talks about Sonic saving the world, as well as asking about Angel Island - which was somewhat of a legend up until S3K (and still generally unknown considering the Mystic Ruins guys didn't know what it was).

    Just because Tails wasn't in Sonic CD doesn't mean that it has to be set before Sonic meets him - By that logic, CD has to come before Sonic 1 because Eggman isn't using Animals to power his robots.
     
  2. Misinko

    Misinko

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    He could've intended all 3 to work together in tangent. None of the trio serve every purpose perfectly. Silver is pure power, Metal is pure speed, and Mecha appears to be somewhere in between, given his slim frame, but large stature. If they were all deployed at once, there's no way Sonic would've been able to tackle them all.

    Eggman really didn't get into the spin of powering his robots with alternative methods until after Adventure 1 though. I see your point. But at the same time, it wouldn't make sense for Tails to just up and desert his idol after going on a grand adventure with him. It makes more sense for him to have gone off and done his own thing before Adventure, seeing as its stated that a good chunk of time has passed between it and the previous game, But CD is implied to have taken place within a couple months after the last game. So Sonic sees a giant metal contraption enclosing on the Little Planet, and he doesn't even think to call up his best friend to help him out? That doesn't make any sense.

    Plus, there's the Tails photo introducing his appearance in Sonic 2, which could point to Sonic CD taking place before Sonic 2 if you wanna stretch things.
     
  3. Titan

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    For those trying to make sense of Triple Trouble and Knuckles's alignment in that game: it just seems easier to assume the 8-bit games take place in their own alternate timeline, IMO. (Which also handily explains why there's only ever 6 emeralds in those games)
     
  4. big smile

    big smile

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    It's not too hard to include the Game Gear games into the main timeline. However, Iizuka was quite dismissive about including the series in Sonic Generations, which suggests that he doesn't consider them as part of the series.

    They Game Gear games also had no involvement from Sonic Team (even spin offs such as Sonic R and Sonic Shuffle had some Sonic Team involvement).
     
  5. Dee Liteyears

    Dee Liteyears

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    Oh my... that quote :v: I start to remember this interview again. Bet he was just was just salty, cuz his GG had rotten caps

    Anyway, I just miss the time when all I had to do to fill my demand for story, was reading StC. I never even tried to make sense of what Sega came up with since Adventure, and wel...l my sanity's greatly thankful for that. It's like Sega looked at Archie and StC and thought "So much convoluted plot nonsense, so many useless side characters, we want a piece of that cake!!"
    Usually the simpler they stay, the better

    I can live with that, though xD
     
  6. Speeps

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    Sonic CD's manual describes Metal Sonic as Eggman's "ultimate robot".
    "The ultimate robot built by Eggman. His abilities are the same as Sonic's, and what's more, he can put out speeds faster than Sonic in an instant. Aligned with Eggman's intentions, he regards Sonic as an enemy."
    He's pretty much Dark Link for Sonic, he's clearly more powerful than the Mecha Sonics you see in 2 and 3. Having him alongside the Mecha Sonics doesn't make sense - that's like, Gamma's story from Adventure 1 except having his E-series brothers be Kikis and Buzzbombers. We already know that the first Mecha Sonic at least wasn't just some throwaway robot judging by how Eggman was sitting in the next room watching the fight. If you want my take on that, I'd say he's studying Sonic's abilities for his work on Metal Sonic.

    Regarding Eggman's machines it's actually the opposite - according to Sonic 1's manual he used alternative methods first and didn't use animals until Sonic 1 to power his machines.
    "Have you seen it, Sonic? This time is going to be different! Because this time, I've turned all the animals on the island into robots!"

    I don't think the pictures from Sonic CD's sound test are canon, considering they include Sonic rapping with Eggman and a Batman reference. Plus, the Tails photo isn't for Sonic 2 - it's for Sonic Drift.
    There's also the fact that Sonic was going to Little Planet just so he could watch the planet appear, not because he knew Eggman was up to no good there. I don't think he would've had time to call Tails and wait for him to get there. As for Sonic leaving Tails, that's exactly what happens in Sonic 4 - he leaves Tails to go explore new places, and has more than enough time to go see Little Planet before he ages up to his Modern appearance.
     
  7. Misinko

    Misinko

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    Fair enough. Can't really argue any more outside of the Spindash, and the lack of the Chaos Emeralds and Super Sonic, but both could easily be explained away with speculation. I dunno why, but CD taking place before Sonic 2 just seems more appealing to me.
     
  8. big smile

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    I think there's an interview with Oshima where he says he made Sonic CD as a new version of Sonic 1, so it's probably safe to assume that it was intended to take place after Sonic 1.

    Eggman has both Metal and Mecha Sonic in his Egg base in Sonic Adventure, so he probably regards them as equals (assuming that second bot is Mecha Sonic, as he looks very different). Eggman also deploys Mecha Sonic in Pocket Sonic Adventure, which further weakens the argument about him not wanting to use Mecha after creating Metal. (In parallel, Mecha Knuckles came after Metal Knuckles).
     
  9. Speeps

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    Pocket Adventure, if anything, is more the 8-bit parent of Sonic 4 and Generations. It has a lot of references to other games in it, including the Knuckles Hidden Palace Zone fight and the game's many stages. It's also kind of hard to place too - the Tornado has its Modern design in Pocket Adventure, despite 4 using the Classic version. Depending on whether you're on the side of Eggman's clothes or the Tornado's design, it can take place either side of 4.

    In that game, Metal would've either still been stuck on Little Planet at the time or broken after the events of 4, so it's not like Eggman could use him. If you can say Sonic 3 Mecha was a robot thrown out there to hold back Sonic, you can say the same thing for the robot that shows up there too. Considering the game's final boss looks like a modified version of the Death Egg Robot and Eggman is known to reuse old machines in other games, it's not outlandish to say he'd use a Mecha Sonic model lying around. Since he's not paying any attention to the Sonic robot in that game, we don't have to worry about what Eggman expects the outcome of the fight to be.

    Th Mecha Sonic robot seen in Sonic Adventure can't be the same one as Sonic 2 or 3k's, considering Sonic and Knuckles destroyed those ones respectively - it has to be a different robot entirely. Eggman never actually uses this random robot Sonic sitting in his base, so it can't be a finished product either (And if you ask me it looks more like Modern Sonic than Classic Sonic, but you could just put that down to design changes). What we do know though is that after Sonic 4, Metal Sonic was largely forgotten about by Eggman until the robot himself started going on a rampage in Heroes (Not counting bonus modes), so my explanation would just be that it's just some old thing he's kept around there.

    We could go even further and look at Eggman's work on other character robots - particularly Mecha Knuckles and Shadow Androids. Both look exactly like the character they're based off (In Mecha Knuckles' case, at least until his real body's exposed), and don't happen to be twice the size of those characters either. If we go along with Eggman viewing both Metal and Mecha Sonic as failed products, we can say that Eggman could have just been working on a version of that for Sonic, which may have been stopped either when Metal Sonic went on a rampage or his interest in Shadow caused him to work on developing the androids instead. I don't think Metal Sonic makes any canon appearances after Heroes, but if he ever does the argument would just be that the events of Heroes redeemed Metal Sonic's power.

    I can certainly see the arguments for CD being before Sonic 2. I just think that you can expand on so much more by placing it after 3K.

    (Also, sorry 'bout all the rambling. I'm a nut for this kind of stuff :v:/> )
     
  10. qwertysonic

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    I always tended to put CD after S&K because of the OVA. I considered the OVA to be a move version of Sonic CD and in it Sonic, Tails and Knuckles are already friends. Also Metal Sonic appears again and S&K Mecha does not. Also In Sonic Adventure even Silver sonic is seen again with Metal Sonic.
    [​IMG]
     
  11. That's trash, where are the Riders Trilogy, Storybook games and Knuckles Chaotix? (Which referenced the Master Emerald moving from Hidden Palace.)

    Whilst I am joking now, there was a point where it wouldn't have been
     
  12. Pengi

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    Sonic Team have had some form of oversight or involvement with every game from Sonic Adventure onwards, so I'd say almost all of them count. Pre-Sonic Adventure though, they've only indicated that Sonic 1, 2, 3&K and CD are part of the main series' continuity.

    Most of the handheld/spin-off games prior to Sonic Adventure didn't really try to match up with the main series. As already mentioned, Sonic & Tails 2 (Sonic Triple Trouble) is, according to the Japanese manual, the first time Sonic encounters Knuckles. Obviously that contradicts Sonic 3. But in terms of the Game Gear games alone, it is the first time Sonic meets Knuckles. So if Sonic & Tails 2 is an alternate continuity, then it stands to reason that Sonic & Tails 1 (Sonic Chaos) is also part of that alternate continuity. At that point it just makes sense to throw the Game Gear versions of Sonic 1 and 2 in there, as well as G Sonic (Sonic Blast). Tails Adventures is by the same developer and has a couple of references to Triple Trouble, so that would probably belong to the Game Gear Sonic universe as well.

    Another thing to consider is Chaotix. In the Japanese manual they go out of their way to connect the story to both Sonic 3 & Knuckles and Sonic CD (explaining that Metal Sonic was repaired and upgraded). The team that worked on it clearly intended for it to be part of the main continuity. But Takashi Iizuka dismissed it because Sonic Team didn't work on it (he said as much in an interview, a Summer of Sonic if I recall correctly). So when Sonic Heroes came along it ignored Chaotix's story entirely and presented new versions of Vector, Espio and Charmy with different personality traits and ages, who had seemingly never met Eggman or Knuckles before. Later, Sonic 4: Episode II had its own explanation of how Metal Sonic came back after Sonic CD.

    So looking at what's left, the order is probably something like:

    Sonic the Hedgehog
    [Sonic CD?]*
    Sonic the Hedgehog 2
    Sonic the Hedgehog 3 & Knuckles
    [Sonic CD?]*

    Sonic 4: Episode I / Sonic 4: Episode Metal
    Sonic 4: Episode II

    Sonic Adventure
    Sonic Shuffle
    Sonic Adventure 2
    Sonic Advance
    Sonic Advance 2
    Sonic Heroes
    Shadow the Hedgehog**
    Sonic Battle
    Sonic Advance 3
    Sonic Riders

    Sonic the Hedgehog (2006)***
    Sonic Rush[?]
    Sonic Rush Adventure[?]
    Sonic Rivals****
    Sonic and the Secret Rings
    Sonic Rivals 2
    Sonic Riders: Zero Gravity
    Sonic Unleashed
    Sonic and the Black Knight
    Sonic Free Riders
    Sonic Colours
    Sonic Generations
    Sonic Lost World

    Sonic Rush and Sonic Rush Adventure are difficult to pinpoint, mostly because of the inconsistencies of Blaze the Cat and Eggman Nega's origins throughout the series. It doesn't help that Sonic and Tails don't really interact with Blaze in Sonic 2006 or that Sonic and Tails never learn that it was Eggman Nega posing as their Eggman in Rivals 1 and 2.

    Personally, I think it makes the most sense if Sonic 2006 happens first. I get the impression that Blaze sealing herself in another dimension was a sloppy attempt at linking up to Sonic Rush. It could be that when the "Prime Dimension" timeline was reset at the end of Sonic 2006, Blaze was deleted from it entirely because she was no longer tethered to it. So Blaze's history was re-written so that she was always part of the "Sol Dimension". It's messy, but I've yet to hear a better explanation.

    It also makes more sense to me that both Rush games take place prior to both Rivals games, since Eggman and Eggman Nega are allies in the Rush series but have an antagonistic relationship in the Rivals series, where Nega is embarrassed of Eggman's failures. Also, since Sonic Team insist that Eggman Nega being Eggman's descendant from the future is his true origin, it makes more sense that he would fabricate a story about being native to the "Sol Dimension" before the truth is revealed in Sonic Rivals.

    The release order of Rush - 2006 - Rivals - Rush Adventure - Rivals 2 wouldn't really make much sense.

    * It's been a popular debate for years, but Sonic CD can take place either before Sonic 2 or after Sonic 3 & Knuckles. There's been no direct confirmation from Sonic Team either way.

    ** In Shadow the Hedgehog, Shadow doesn't have his memories back yet or know who he is. In Sonic Battle he's shown to remember a lot more. So despite being released later, Shadow the Hedgehog would have to take place before Sonic Battle to make sense. Sonic Advance 3 is a continuation of Sonic Battle's story, so it also has to take place later, despite also being released prior to Shadow the Hedgehog.

    *** Sonic's first encounter with Silver the Hedgehog, but this meeting is erased via time travel by the end of the game.

    **** Sonic's first encounter with Silver the Hedgehog in the altered timeline after the events of Sonic 2006.
     
  13. Chimera

    Chimera

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    Sonic has no plot.

    I like this idea better.
     
  14. big smile

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    Of course, the real fun is trying to make sense of Iizuka's claim that the games take place on two worlds: Sonic's world and Earth. That really makes things complicated.

    Generations makes nods to Sega Sonic and Fighters, while Ian Flynn has stated that one of the notes given to him from Sega of Japan mentioned that Sonic R is canon.


    I don't think he discussed Chaotix at summer of Sonic. He did mention he considered the Chaotix in Heroes to be new recreations in a EGM interview, but it's not explicitly clear if he doesn't consider Chaotix part of the story.

    Although Iizuka has said himself that although they put connections between the games, they don't think about it too much, so a lot of the 'canon' and correct order is up to the individual fan.
     
  15. Blastfrog

    Blastfrog

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    When placing Sonic CD, it's important to consider context. SCD started development before even Sonic 2 and was developed independently as its own sequel to Sonic 1. Sonic 3 wasn't even a thought at the time, and in its earliest planning stages they wanted to do an isometric game. Sonic 4 was a poorly developed cash-in on nostalgia made decades later. I don't care what the official company line is, Sonic CD takes place before Sonic 2 and Sonic 4 is not a proper part of the series.

    When discussing the pre-Adventure games, I think it's best to take them on their own than to try working in later games. The devs had no idea what the future held for the series, they just wrote stories that worked within what material existed up to that point.

    As for Chaotix, I think that Oshima wanted to continue his variant on the series. Amy was to be featured (likely as the damsel in distress again) and Metal Sonic was heavily featured. Yes, they borrowed Tails (though cut) and Knuckles from the mainline games, but it's clear that the focus was on CD's cast of characters.
     

  16. Even outside the "cheap cash-in" angle, Sonic 4 plot should probably be dumped for the same reasons Sonic Chronicles was (that being it's yet another aborted and abandoned plot arc that Sega will never touch again. Speaking of which, how many of those does Sonic have by now?).
     
  17. Pengi

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    Sonic 3D and Sonic R had mini-sites hosted on SonicTeam.com for the longest time, so I think Sonic Team likely consider them part of the core "brand". They even had the Sonic 3D Flickies in the Sonic X anime.

    Sonic 4 and Generations throw a bit of a wrench in the works though. If we take Generations at face value then Sonic, Tails and Eggman all used to have their classic looks and at some point grew into their Adventure era looks. Going by that logic, all of the "Classic Sonic" games would have to take place before all of the "Modern Sonic" games. Sonic 4 is a "Modern Sonic" game that depicts Metal Sonic's revival after his defeat in Sonic CD. So games like Sonic R or Sonic the Fighters would have to take place after Sonic 4, but they use the "Classic Sonic" designs. Sonic 4 also introduces a "Death Egg mk.II" that completely disregards Sonic the Fighters' "Death Egg II".

    Sonic 3D and Sega Sonic can fit into the continuity just fine though. (Maybe the Saturn version of Sonic 3D, where the Flickies are less chatty.)

    I wish I could remember what interview it was. It might have been a Sonic Boom event. It was definitely a video interview.

    But in Sonic Heroes itself the intention was clear that Team Chaotix had never met Eggman, Knuckles, Metal Sonic, Sonic or Tails before. It was a complete reboot for Vector, Espio and Charmy.
     
  18. DigitalDuck

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    Classic Sonic looks different to Modern Sonic in Generations so the player can easily identify which is which. It's implied that he looks exactly the same to other characters in the game, and as such hasn't changed looks-wise in-universe.
     
  19. Pengi

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    There are a few gags about Classic Sonic's appearance when he rescues his friends.

    That being said, when Sonic Adventure flashed back to Sonic CD they used the new designs for Sonic and Amy. So it's not been very consistent and there's always a chance Sonic Team might change the rules again.
     
  20. big smile

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    There was a Nintendo Power Magazine interview where Iizuka said they only used the modern design for branding reasons so it ties in with the other games that were on sale at the time. Plus Stealth mentioned that Sonic 4 was originally supposed to be a regular mobile game that was adapted by SOA into Sonic 4 midway during development. I am sure if things had been planned out better, they probably would have used the classic Sonic design.

    Design issues aside, Sonic 4 fits in quite well. The Death Egg MkII remains intact, which sets up things for Fighters. Then Metal Sonic hits a wall in Sonic 4 and presumably dies as in Sonic CD, which sets up things for his revival in Chaotix.
    Also the Death Egg later appears in Sonic Battle and the 24th Birthday episode of Sonic Runners (where it seems there are multiple Death Eggs that kidnap Sonic's friends), so it's not too much of a stretch for Eggman to have multiple Death Egg IIs.

    I don't think Iizuka talked about Chaotix in any of the Boom videos, but I could be wrong. In Heroes, Espio introduces Eggman to Charmy (which is interesting because in the 32X game only Espio is shown interacting with Eggman). The problem with Heroes is that the story is very threadbare. It also doesn't help that Team Sonic and Team Chaotix never interact (aside from the last episode when everyone is together). So it's hard to draw any conclusions. I think the Chaotix were just soft-rebooted (E.g. they are reintroduced and it's up to the player to decide if they are same characters).

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