What gameplay features would you want in the next 2D Sonic game?

Discussion in 'General Sonic Discussion' started by Jordan91, Nov 15, 2020.

  1. You wanna know something ironic, this is something Sonic Adventure 2 did already :V Knuckles/Rouge has exclusive levels completely designed around their objectives and abilities. But naturally, it kind of ran into the same problems that usually plague these games in that the focus of the gameplay wasn't very Sonic-like AND it breaks up the pace of a good Sonic/Shadow level.

    But I DO like the idea of characters having their own level design, but I feel like such a thing could only be achieved by lessening the amount of playable characters in the game. You'd probably have to cut the roster down to Sonic and whoever was the star of the game to probably get that through, but an idea like honestly isn't bad.
     
  2. Aight, I came up with an idea in my head. A new 2D game starring Sonic & Shadow. Two separate campaigns with the same levels, but the layout is slightly different to accommodate for both characters. Think of them as going through parallel, but never intersecting sections.

    Story is fairly simple; Eggman has found a new source of power and plans on using it to take over the world. Sonic, naturally, goes off to stop him as usual while Shadow investigates what exactly this power actually is and it's origins.

    Sonic pretty much retains all of his Mania moveset and level design, albeit he'll have access to all of his 2D moves(Super Peel Out, Insta-shield, and the Drop Dash) mapped to different button inputs. Throw in some new level gimmicks and Sonic is pretty much set.

    Shadow would play very similarly to Sonic, as they would retain the same basic moveset (Spin attacks basically), but Shadow's would notably be somewhat underpowered compared to Sonic's (i.e. his spin dash doesn't have the same amount of torque as Sonic's) but in exchange, he gets a double jump powered by his jet shoes, a horizontal air dash, and the ability to slow down time with Chaos Control briefly. Shadow's levels would generally be way more focused on platforming to accommodate for these abilities.

    Music is by Tee Lopes as usual, but Shadow's levels can have a "remix" of sort the same way Blaze's stages were remixed in Rush, maybe using instrumentation from his game.


    I know, using a modern character in a 2D game, sacrilege. But the topic asked what I would want in a 2D game, they didn't specify it had to be strictly Classic, and I've been fiending for the idea of Shadow in a 2D game forever.
     
  3. Pengi

    Pengi

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    That sounds exactly like what most people wanted, that you decried as stale, a sequel to Sonic Mania with all new levels and a new character.
     
  4. He never said he wanted a mania sequel. Why do all the classic fans automatically assume that anytime anyone mentions "2d" in sonic, they must be talking about mania in some way?

    I'm still silently hoping the next 2d game is built off of the advance formula, with all the same flair to it. A 2d game featuring sonic and shadow would be right at home here, or heck, even a rush game.
     
  5. Pengi

    Pengi

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    If it plays like Sonic Mania, but with an extra character, how is that not essentially what everyone else has been asking for?

    (What is the “Advance formula”? All three games took different approaches, with 1 for the most part being in the style of the Mega Drive games.)
     
  6. Just couldn't resist making a comment huh.
     
  7. The first word that comes to mind for me is "parkour". While the classic games felt like platformers, the advance games felt dedicated to a parkour-esque flow. Doing tricks off of all the ramps and springs, grinding rails, shattering the sound barrier and getting those sexy afterimages, etc. etc....

    Advance 1 only feels like the genesis games cause it's slower, it has nothing to do with how it's designed. If you put advance 2 or 3 sonic into advance 1 levels, or vice versa, aside from the speed difference, it'd work really well. Also, each character in the advance games got extra abilities and tweaks that changed them from "sonic with an extra ability" to a completely different playstyle entirely. And finally, while useful in some places, tails's flight and knuckles's gliding weren't the be all, end all gimmicks of exploring the sonic stages. Everyone was viable (especially sonic and amy in advance 1, who were the only ones who could grind rails and take secret paths)
     
  8. Beltway

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    If the Advance games were an actual genre shift into action/adventure games or even a vastly different format of platforming, then I'd probably understand the amount of value people put into the added mechanics for the trilogy. But with the core game design still being derived from the previous 2D Sonic games --albeit even more streamlined/simplified at times-- I personally don't get the hype behind them. They just feel like bloat to me, and complicated bloat for a game that's more simple/straightforward in comparison. I think they are an example of developers adding new tricks for the sake of having them; instead of actually designing new mechanics that build upon the gameplay they have.

    And I'd like to emphasize the "more streamlined/simplified" bit, because I think there definitely is a not-avoidable difference in terms of design across all three games. Neo Genesis Sonic the Hedgehog, Tony Hawk the Hedgehog's Downhill Jam, and "the third one that has a bunch of things going on in it."
     
    Last edited: Dec 18, 2020
  9. Xiao Hayes

    Xiao Hayes

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    I have some fangame concept involving Sonic, Shadow and Silver in classic 2D style that has nothing to do with '06 beyond the character roster; maybe a bit with Shadow's own game, but still too different (spoiler: the modern hedgehogs would suffer a inverse Chaotix-type reintroduction with new background story).
     
  10. Scarred Sun

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    Welp, this.
    So, I'm going to challenge you guys a little bit here. This may seem weird but stick with me.

    Imagine you want to eat pizza, but you're diabetic--so something has to be modified in the pizza in order for you to eat it and enjoy it.

    In order to get the most happiness out of your modified pizza, you generally have to step back and say "what is it about pizza that I like?" I don't mean that you prefer a certain brand of pizza or types of flavors--what is it about the essence of pizza that you enjoy? Are you into cheese being stringy? Do you like the meaty taste of toppings mixed with tomato sauce herbs? Is the grab-and-go factor of a pizza slice appealing?

    Once you have that nailed down, interpreting "what the fuck is pizza, anyway, and how can I prepare it in a way that satisfies me?" is a lot more straightforward and helps inform your choices. Some ways to check off the box of "pizza, but for diabetics" include:

    - Creating a crust with meat, cauliflower, almond email, etc.
    - Swapping a sugary tomato or BBQ sauce with alfredo, pesto, etc.
    - Choosing different toppings (no pineapple, no dessert pizza)

    But even that's not really being creative. What if:

    - you made a pizza cheesesteak?
    - you got really into pizza Hot Pockets?
    - you ate a handful of pizza-flavored low-carb crackers?
    - you smelled a pizza-scented candle?

    The essence of pizza, after all, can be found in all of those items, too.

    However, if you're going to have a pizza party for all of your friends, you'd probably want some common ingredients to prepare a variety of pizza treats. A pizza cheesesteak, meat-based pizza crust, and French bread pizza made with a hoagie roll all have the same common set of ingredients. However, they're still identifiable as pizza and allow you to do extra customization that makes that pizza uniquely Your Pizza.

    I feel like Sonic Team's current solution to the pizza party problem is to make a normal pizza, a pizza cheesesteak, some pizza crackers, and a pizza candle. I mean, yeah, those things all have the "essence of pizza", but they're hard to assemble into anything cohesive and candle making, surprise surprise, requires a different skill set than making a pizza.

    If we use the "no sugar" requirement as 2D, we can go back and look at all the various parts of 2D that we like--and then break down why those experiences are pleasurable. There's common ground. C'mon, you're on Sonic Retro, you like the essence of Sonic.

    The key to making a good 2D game, though, is to figure out those elements that fit together and make the widest audience happy. That means you need to understand precisely what it is--beyond the essence--that you're enjoying. As an example, I actually don't mind when a 2D game takes control mid-level for a 10 to 15-second scripted play event! Now, in order for that to work, I want it to feel like I'm going fast, that there's a clear emotional beat or plot point happening, and that they happen sparingly--maybe three-four times throughout the entire gameplay experience. But that doesn't mean I hate them; I just want them in a slightly different dose and format. If you can find enough common elements and things people enjoy, there's absolutely no problem sticking something like that in a 2D game.

    Meanwhile, some of y'all are out here arguing about Papa John's barbecue chicken pizza vs. a frozen pizza roll in terms of discrepancies. That's fine--and let's be honest, pizza candle person is going to just need to make a fangame or go to Archive of Our Own or whatever--but I think if you started breaking down the elements you'd find more common ground than you are now.

    This also applies to people who question whether reusing elements would make for a stale series. I mean, look at Yakuza--up until YLAD, there's always been the same locales, same characters, etc., but each game still manages to feel fresh in some way. Don't confuse lazy cash-in sequels with reusing and remixing the same elements in different ways.
     
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  11. I get what you're saying, but you sure succeeded in making me hungry.
     
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  12. Xiao Hayes

    Xiao Hayes

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    I don't eat pizza or anything like that, and I have no idea about Yakuza, so, if I got it correctly, I think you wouldn't have needed to refer to them for us to get your point. I'd even say someone already said sort of that. The problem still exists, however, since common ground is not always enough ground.
     
  13. Hanging Waters

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    ew Papa John's :V:V:V

    Good analogy though. I’ll add that sometimes we perceive differences / divisiveness where there is none (at least not on Retro).

    Using this as an example, although I know it wasn’t meant in a negative way, but earlier someone jokingly suggested that Shadow in a classic game was “heresy”. Someone could genuinely think people here hate Shadow and would never want him in a classic game, when Megamix (a game that gave classic Shadow a whole new control scheme) exists, and this community generally threw a lot of support behind it. I think I‘m reading that room correctly when I say people thought it was a sick idea.

    It’s like being a Papa Johns fan and thinking DiGiornio pizza fans hate pepperoni. When, in reality, y’all both like Pepperoni and you are just assuming this is a point of contention.
     
  14. VectorCNC

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    I like the pizza analogy. I’ll say that, after waiting 2 decades for the 2D Sonic experience I always wanted to recapture, if SEGA thinks they’re going to be innovative and give us a pizza gumball, or Sonic Advance Pizza... Instead of the wildly successful mania recipe, I just simply won’t be bothered to give a shit about Sonic anymore. I honestly don’t think I’ve truly connected with a Sonic game since Adventure, sans Mania. That’s really sad. If they can’t just for once stick with a winning formula, like Mania, then I just give up. I wouldn’t be surprised if there were a lot of others like me, people looking for a Renaissance but prepared for the final straw to break. I fully expect SEGA to fuck this up, I’d put money on it.
     
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  15. I'm with ya there. I never thought I'd live to see the day where the next sonic game has the possibility to turn me away for good. :(
     
  16. MagnusTheGreen

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    Sorry if this is late, but I would 100% play Sonic And The Haunted Hockey Stick should the opportunity arise. I'd also play Evening Star Presents Sonic Retro Blast Mania 2 And Knuckles. Let DIMPS make their own 2D game, and let Evening Star do their own thing. They can make Sonic Mania II, but there can also be a more rush style wild original game. We act like there can only be one Sonic game at a time, but look at Sonic Mania and Forces. Also, as a side note, nobody says the 4 (Sonic, 2, 3, and Knuckles) classic games are repetitive. Why would one Mania sequel be a travesty. I'd be down for a Mania "clone but with original levels".
    Made by the Hockey, For the Hockey
     
  17. LucasMadword

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    You know, wording it like that makes me realise what I actually want for the next 2D game. Let Evening Star do their own thing entirely. If they want to do a direct Mania sequel, let them, because it'll be amazing. If they decide they want to do a Rush style game, let them, because it'll very likely be amazing. I would love another Mania styled game with entirely new levels, but at the same time, it's whatever Evening Star want to do. I just want a good game, if they think changing up the formula is gonna make it better, then I will trust them entirely :P