What approach should 3D Sonic take next?

Discussion in 'General Sonic Discussion' started by The Joebro64, Mar 23, 2020.

  1. Chaos Rush

    Chaos Rush

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    To me the criteria of being an Adventure game is having multiple playable characters but only one at a time, and a Chao Garden.

    Sonic Heroes had the team gimmick, Shadow had guns and only let you play as Shadow (aside from 2P), Sonic 06 is the closest to being an Adventure game out of all of those but shouldn’t count because it was only about 70% finished at release, and Unleashed was another gimmick game and even the regular Sonic gameplay was completely different.

    I wish people wouldn’t be like, “Sonic 06 was bad so they should never attempt the Adventure style gameplay again”. Sonic 06 was bad because it was unfinished and buggy, and story aside I really believe Sonic 06 would’ve been considered a good game had it had an extra year of dev time to iron out all of the bugs and include all of the content originally planned. I’d love to see something like Sonic 06 but polished to the max, and maybe some major changes to the story to make it less cringy.
     
  2. SystemsReady

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    Sonic 06 was always "Adventure 3" silently in my eyes. Hub worlds, levels with a "realistic" aesthetic based on real-world locations, multiple gameplay styles, an "epic" plot with a giant god monster at the end that gets summoned despite everyone trying to stop that exact thing the entire runtime (mind you, this was before Unleashed, which come to think of it was basically them going "how about we try this but good"). It's basically SA1's plot with additional time travel garbage and hub world ideas and SA2's more focused gameplay loop (only three characters with much more scaled back side characters).

    I remember it being seen by other fans as that before it came out too, back when I was on the SoA forums.

    But anyway, yes, I have no faith in Sonic Team whatsoever, but let's admit it, a Sonic game developed by the Yakuza team would be bonkers and would also have a higher chance of not sucking.
     
  3. The Joebro64

    The Joebro64

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    Why can't Sega just get acquired by Nintendo so we can see Nintendo's take on a 3D Sonic game?
     
  4. Because Sega got bought out by a Pachinko company called Sammy Holdings. Also I'd never want Sega to be owned by Nintendo, because that would mean games would be stuck on one platform, which means no more multiplatform games and PC ports. Plus, that would mean no more Sonic ROM hacks and no more Sonic fan games.
     
    Last edited: Apr 28, 2020
  5. Nova

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    This is extremely hopeful thinking - we don't know 'how finished' 06 was at launch, what else was planned for it and how much further it would have gotten worked on, and it has glaring problems far outside the realm of technical issues.

    We had exactly two games labelled 'Sonic Adventure' and both were largely quite different in structure and style, so who are any of us to say that the games mentioned couldn't be follow-ups? It seems to be that "it's not what I wanted, so it's nothing like Sonic Adventure 3 would be".
     
  6. Mastered Realm

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    You can't just magically erase that plot... you can't make a good game out of that!

    It sometimes uses load screens to get to the 'Results' screen and to get out of it.
    No amount of dev time would save such bad design.
     
  7. Chaos Rush

    Chaos Rush

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    I guess I should be more specific, I meant more like “imagine Sonic 06 but with all of its problems fixed” and that includes all of its problems with its design. Maybe more dev time wouldn’t have fixed that, but my main point wasn’t “imagine a Sonic 06 with more dev time”, it was more like “imagine a properly finished Sonic 06 that didn’t have half of its dev team taken away during development and without the corporate shakeups that occurred”, or basically “imagine Sonic 06, but with all of its problems fixed”. But I guess it wouldn’t be Sonic 06 anymore then wouldn’t it?

    And regarding the vast differences between SA1 and SA2, I’d argue that there are enough common traits between those two games that are not a part of other games like Heroes, Shadow, and Unleashed. For one is “Adventure style gameplay”, specifically Sonic and Shadow’s levels in SA2, Sonic’s levels in SA1 (and to a lesser extent, Tails and Amy). I think it’s safe to say that Sonic 06 was aiming to replicate that kind of mid-paced platforming, and there is a clear distinction between that and the boost trilogy gameplay.

    Another trait is multiple playable characters, but one at a time.

    And lastly, is a Chao Garden, which many people I guess don’t think was an important enough part of the Adventure games to be considered a criteria for an Adventure game, but to me was a very iconic and important part of the Adventure games. But whatever, I’m just listing things that SA1, SA2, and to a lesser extent SA6 had in common. To sum it up:
    1. Mid-paced 3D platforming
    2. Multiple playable characters but one at a time
    3. Chao Garden

    Heroes only checks #1, Shadow kinda checks #1, Unleashed doesn’t check any, and 06 checks a whopping two of them #1 and #2. Only problem is that 06 isn’t a finished game so it doesn’t really count as “we already got Adventure 3” in my opinion. I get that Unleashed was branded as part of the Adventure series in Japan, and I wouldn’t be surprised if there is a future game called Adventure 3 that fulfills none of the criteria I listed above. All I’m saying is that if someone wants to define what makes an Adventure game, I think it would be those three things because it’s what SA1, SA2, and S06(barring Chao Garden) have in common that Heroes, Shadow, and Unleashed lack.

    (and no, this isn’t a “I didn’t like Heroes/Shadow/Unleashed so they aren’t Adventure 3” thing, I enjoyed and played the shit out of all three games growing up, yes even Shadow(no intention to ever play it again though), I just don’t consider them to be the same sub-series as SA1 and SA2 based on the shared characteristics between those two games, in the same sense that many consider Unleashed, Colors, and Generations to be their own sub-series)
     
    Last edited: Apr 28, 2020
  8. Overlord

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    Sonic 06 with all of the problems fixed would have been an entirely different game with an entirely different plot that just happens to share level aesthetics.
     
  9. Nova

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    I just think it's folly to believe that all of the problems would ever be fixed with 06 - after all, somebody thought that ball section near the end was a good idea. Somebody thought holding a shield to pass over sand was a good idea. At what point do you draw the line of what could have been and what just plain wasn't?

    The Adventure gameplay style had it's time in the sun, whether you agree those titles were a hypothetical 'SA3' or not, and it never amounted to too much. Sonic achieved arguably far more praise critically since the switch to the 'Modern' formula, so I really don't understand this desire to go back.
     
  10. SystemsReady

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    yes every time someone tries to claim to me that there's a good game somewhere in Sonic 06, I just think of that billiards section, the mach speed instadeaths, and Shadow's vehicles. Plus of course the princess romance. Honestly the only good idea Sonic 06 has is the aesthetic of Kingdom Valley and related areas, which is still gorgeous to me to this day, if somewhat ill-suited for Sonic.
     
  11. The Joebro64

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    A bit unrelated, but I just discovered that Sega and Nintendo were allegedly in discussions that could have led to a buyout in December 2000, which is a fascinating alternate reality to think about...

    (also I don't think a buyout would mean the end of fangames and ROM hacks. Nintendo isn't actually as stringent as everyone makes them out to be; from what I've observed, they only seem to care about fan works that take content directly from their games, unaltered, and make them available for free. It does suck and they're overreacting IMO, but it makes sense. Why buy Samus Returns for the 3DS when AM2R is available for free and works on any computer with decent specs? They also don't seem to give a rat's ass about ROM hacking, as evidenced by the endless number of hacks available on romhacking.net and SNES Central.)
     
  12. Chaos Rush

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    I don’t know why the concept of a “fixed Sonic 06” is so absurd to people. Of course a lot of things would have to be changed and it would very well be a different game, wouldn’t be Sonic 06 anymore as we know it, but that’s the point. It would have the same characters, similar plot (I’d change Elise to a hedgehog or at least an anthro to make that aspect less weird), same level names & themes, but the actual design, engine, etc would be very different. But it definitely wouldn’t have boost or Lost World gameplay, that’s for sure. I don’t have any issue with having completely different level layouts and design aspects and still calling it Sonic 06 - just like how SEGA had no issue with calling two very different games Sonic 2, calling two very different games Sonic Unleashed, etc.

    Just like how Colors took Unleashed and threw out all the bad stuff (i.e. Werehog), I don’t see anything wrong with going back to the Adventure gameplay as long as all the bad stuff (shooting gameplay, Emerald hunting) is left behind. Going back to the Adventure style gameplay doesn’t have to mean including all of the shitty parts of those games too. My viewpoint is look at the past, take what’s good and evolve it. Not do exactly what was done before.

    I don’t want another Adventure-inspired game with a shitty camera, shitty controls, shooting gameplay, and emerald hunting. I don’t want any of that. But I’d love to see a mid-paced 3D Sonic platformer that incorporates aspects of Sonic & Shadow’s SA2 gameplay as well as further evolving the “let’s try to make the 2D classic gameplay work in 3D” thing that Adventure had going on, as long as it’s extremely polished and doesn’t have any camera or control issues (I’d also love to play as Tails and Knuckles too - but I don’t want to control a mech, I don’t want to race Sonic in shorter version’s of Sonic’s levels, and I don’t want to hunt Emeralds). I seriously doubt we’ll ever get something like that (I expect the next game will be some Boost thing with Classic Sonic shoehorned in somewhere), but I don’t see why merely saying “that would be cool” is seen as such an absurd strange thing.
     
    Last edited: May 1, 2020
  13. The Joebro64

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    Change Elise to Sally and the biggest issue with the plot (creepy bestiality) is immediately fixed. Sure, it'd still be somewhat weird (especially for SatAM/Archie fans), but at least it wouldn't be "generic redhead princess who's can't do anything and talks like Meg from Family Guy", it'd be a character who's actually got history in Sonic media and is a good match for Sonic romantically to boot.
     
  14. DigitalDuck

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    People always complain about the fact that Elise kissed a hedgehog.

    He was dead. Necrophilia is way more creepy.
     
  15. Nova

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    This is another thing I struggle to come to terms with and correct me if I'm misunderstanding. In one post you're listing all these things that the later Adventure-formula games didn't do, hence why they could never truly be SA3, but then you're arguing that if we took Sonic 06 and took out all the bad parts of the Adventure formula it would be fine. You either want those elements or you don't.

    It's not that it's an absurd thing to say or ask, it's just that a lot of us, having lived through the release of those games and seeing the contemporary reactions to them, are possibly a little bewildered at the shift in what the community seems to want. As fans, we spent years trying to steer SEGA away from having dozens of friend characters, janky non-Sonic gameplay and weird 'experiments' and when we finally get somewhere, people start going "No, not like that, we want all this stuff from these games that people were really mixed on back in the mid-2000s!"
     
  16. qwertysonic

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    We just want the game to be fun, and many people don't find the recent boost games fun. It's as simple as that.People latch onto SA and SA2 because they remember it to be fun. Maybe it's just rose tinted glasses because, yes emerald hunting sucked, tails piloting a slow robot sucked, fishing sucked, shaky camera and glitchy controls sucked. I think people are wrong for wanting SA remade, but the simple truth is that many people don't like the boost gameplay/level design.
     
  17. Nova

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    Many people like Coldplay and voted for the Nazis, you can't trust people.

    EDIT, because I feel I have to add some kind of point to my post:

    The problem is SEGA cannot and will never be able to please everyone. The issues you've described with the SA formula put more of us than not off seeing another one. The boost formula is unarguably far more stable and polished despite only appearing in three (debatably two) games, and Generations did gangbuster and actually did received universal acclaim from the press. How many reviews said it was a return to form?
     
  18. Chaos Rush

    Chaos Rush

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    First of all, I want to make it clear that I certainly respect your opinion, and would like to have a civil mature discussion about this. We all want the same thing - a good 3D Sonic game, but we may disagree on the execution of it.

    You mention that I either "want those elements or I don't". I don't see this as an "all or nothing" type of deal, and the things that I listed as things that later games didn't do was merely three things (of which Sonic 06 only had two of), which is simply things I observed that SA1 and SA2 have in common. When I say "take out the bad parts of the Adventure games/06", in my opinion none of the bad parts are those three things between SA1 and SA2. Again, the things I listed were:

    1. mid-paced platforming
    2. multiple playable characters but one at a time
    3. a Chao Garden

    So when I say "take out all the bad parts of the Adventure games", to me the bad parts doesn't involve any of the three things above. BUT, I can see how #2 can make people nervous. I myself don't want to run around in a mech, nor hunt Emeralds, nor shoot guns and hear "Damn!" every time I get hit. But having multiple playable characters doesn't have to mean "exactly how SA1/SA2 handled multiple playable characters", as I mentioned before: just the good parts, not the bad. Playing as Tails doesn't have to mean controlling a mech. Playing as Knuckles doesn't have to mean hunting emeralds. This is why I don't see this as a "you either want it or you don't". I don't even want to play as characters like Big the Cat or E-123 Omega. Me saying "I want multiple playable characters" does not necessarily mean "I want multiple playable characters exactly how they attempted to do it before", I'm saying attempt that same concept but do it better. You know, like how Sonic 3 & Knuckles or Sonic Mania handled it. That is what I mean by "good aspects". It does not have to mean Big the Cat, Gamma, Silver, etc., really I just mean Sonic, Tails, and Knuckles, and all having the same basic physics but different moves. Just like how S3&K and Sonic Mania did it.

    Really, I just want to see a simple 3D Sonic game with Sonic, Tails, and Knuckles, all controlling well with very polished levels and controls. I don't think that's an absurd thing to want.

    So, to clarify:

    "dozens of friend characters" - I only want Sonic, Tails, and Knuckles

    "janky non-Sonic gameplay" - I don't want this either. I want everyone to control similarly to Sonic just like how S3&K and Sonic Mania does it. This wouldn't be possible in a Boost game. But SA1 did it for Sonic, Tails, Knuckles, and Amy and they were so close to nailing it (in my opinion), they just add to ruin it with stuff like "race Sonic in shitter versions of Sonic's stages" or "hunt for Emeralds" or "run from an annoying robot that is constantly behind you"

    "weird 'experiments'" - Totally agree. I don't want to play as the Werehog or whatever Lost World even is. I don't think wanting to play as Tails and Knuckles has to be a "weird experiment".
     
  19. Nova

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    Here's the crux of it though, at that point, it really isn't a Sonic Adventure game.
     
  20. The Joebro64

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    How about make the ensemble Adventure games a sort of Avengers-style event? Release boost and classic-style games in the meantime, and start Luigi/Wario-style spin-off series for Tails and Knuckles while they're at it. Then everyone's happy.