What approach should 3D Sonic take next?

Discussion in 'General Sonic Discussion' started by TheOneAndOnlyJoebro64, Mar 23, 2020.

  1. Dek Rollins

    Dek Rollins

    Finest Kind Member
    100
    32
    28
    SRB2 is incredibly difficult to control compared to the classic games, and precise platforming suffers from that. The Utopia demo also has issues with physics and gravity, allowing Sonic to fly through the air way too easily. But I do think Sega should take some notes from some fangames.
     
  2. Pengi

    Pengi

    Member
    792
    37
    28
    There are several valid approaches to making a 3D Sonic game. The series being what it is, I'm more concerned about the next game simply being good, rather than meeting all of my preferences. Sonic 2006 was more Sonic Adventure, but bad. Sonic Forces was more Sonic Generations, but bad. The execution is always the most important thing. For a platformer (or any action game, really) the two most important things are that the character is fun, intuitive and responsive to control, and the levels are fun, engaging and varied. Good controls, good level design. Without those fundamentals in place, no amount of good ideas is going to make it a good game.
     
  3. TheOneAndOnlyJoebro64

    TheOneAndOnlyJoebro64

    I still need to play Heroes. Member
    230
    84
    28
    One thing I'd like is the option to turn off the ranking system. I personally think it's fun to try and get better ranks in the games where it's present, but it really discourages exploration and prioritizes speed over all else. Keep it, but we at least should be able to turn it off.
     
  4. Wafer

    Wafer

    owner of "objectively bad opinions" Member
    178
    51
    28
    Disassembling n00bs, WIP
    okay wow, we're striving for "objectively" good opinions in here. So long, thread, it was fun while it lasted!

    Edit: Oh wait HANG ON A SECOND. I remember you, now! Remember a few threads ago, when your pants got all pissy because someone dared to speak badly of the Adventure series and you HILARIOUSLY told them to "hold that L"?

    Well, Retro remembers what I said to you then, and it still applies now:
     
    Last edited: Mar 25, 2020
    • Agree Agree x 5
    • Like Like x 1
    • List
  5. Dek Rollins

    Dek Rollins

    Finest Kind Member
    100
    32
    28
    I actually don't like the ranking system very much. It not only discourages non-speedrunning, but when I was younger, getting a bad rank just made me feel bad. It didn't encourage me to do better as much as it said "You suck. E." People say the classic games are unforgiving, but they allow you to gain skill at your own pace, rather than making you feel as though you have to prove your worth to the game's arbitrary standard.

    So I agree, I'd like the choice to turn off ranking and just see my score at the end of an act. Really, I think ranks should maybe be relegated to a "challenge mode" if anything.
     
  6. OrtengeSoda

    OrtengeSoda

    Member
    13
    0
    1
    I believe Sonic Lost World did something similar to this. You never had ranks in the level itself but once you finished the level you unlocked a "time trial" mode that gave you a rank at the end of the level. The game still had a timer for every level though so it was more or less irrelevant.
     
  7. Pengi

    Pengi

    Member
    792
    37
    28
    That would suck for anyone who got scores they were proud of during the story mode.
     
  8. Overlord

    Overlord

    ...did we just switch realities? Moderator
    17,628
    81
    28
    Berkshire, England
    Learning Cymraeg
    Sidenote - anyone who says that other people's motion sickness issues aren't worth noting can sod off - Utopia does indeed edge towards issues in this area, as someone who's suffered from motion sickness.
     
  9. Roebloz

    Roebloz

    Member
    5
    0
    1
    Eh I don't really know, I ain't a big fan of 3D Sonic Games myself, they should probably try to make a good story and gameplay quality ratio. Story -wise, something like the Adventure games basically. Gameplay wise, I think they had a good idea with the Sonic 06's Mach Speed sections, but they screwed it up in the end. I think either a polished version of the Mach Speed sections OR something like the Sonic Mania Special Stages would be a pretty fun to play experience. (also this is my first post here, hi)
     
  10. Dek Rollins

    Dek Rollins

    Finest Kind Member
    100
    32
    28
    A day late but I think it's worth mentioning that in the scenario I was referring to, you would still have a score. It just wouldn't stamp a big letter in your face. The scores can even be saved with a real high-score system. I'd really like that actually. An arcade-y high score system would be a good fit I think, considering the games have always had scores anyway.
     
  11. Pengi

    Pengi

    Member
    792
    37
    28
    Am I understanding this right? A player could get a score worth an A-rank in Story Mode, and the score would be saved, but they wouldn't get the A-rank on their save file because they didn't get the score in Challenge Mode?
     
  12. Dek Rollins

    Dek Rollins

    Finest Kind Member
    100
    32
    28
    Or the A-rank could be applied silently, I don't care. I just don't want to see a letter grade at the end of an act to tell me how the game thinks I did.

    I was just throwing ideas out based on what I said previously in my post. I don't like the ranks very much, and I wouldn't miss them if they weren't there at all. But, I was thinking of alternative ideas for a way to include them. I'd prefer a regular high score system, which is what I was just getting at.

    As far as ranks only being applied in a challenge mode, they could even be missions a la SA2. In story mode you would get a score, just like in the classic games. Each mission, or challenge, or what have you, would rank you based on how you performed the task.
     
  13. Azookara

    Azookara

    take it from me, little buddy Member
    3,002
    34
    28
    Meowth's party
    hoboagogo?
    Do Sonic Adventure's gameplay again.

    I'm not kidding, I think the tempo and flow of that game is great. Sonic's speed is only moderately fast (that's a good thing), the classic physics ideas are approximate yes but work mostly as intended, jumping has a reliable sense of float and aim (but being airborne doesn't send you flying off into space), wall running is very easy with good angles and timing, and the mechanics are as simple as a one-button Spindash/roll and a homing attack.

    The only things SA1 is lacking aren't things that play against the concept but rather just signs of it's age. That same gameplay with a camera and collision system that isn't a poor programmer's understanding of 3D just 2 years after the book was writ on it would no joke be great; and would open up the level design to not be so crutched on those factors. And even if they still did a little I genuinely wouldn't care; I actually love the occasional cinematic bullshit if it's not over half the meal.

    Other than that uhh I guess making the steering at high speed stiffer and make the Spindash less spammable? Tweaks and etc to the gameplay sure, but I can't think of a genuine reason the gameplay style was ever swore off or treated as if it were fundamentally broken.
     
    • Agree Agree x 4
    • Like Like x 1
    • List
  14. Multi Battler

    Multi Battler

    puniboy 4 president Member
    Actually, controlling Sonic already does get a lot stiffer when reaching a certain speed, but it doesn’t quite feel right. It feels abrupt and in many instances you don’t get the chance to get used to it. I sometimes wonder if it would make sense to implement a quick-turn button or something… Were you talking solely about steering in SA1 or 3D Sonic in general?

    I had a nightmare that the next Sonic game is going to be like Pokémon Quest: Isometric camera, cutesy graphics, a little bit chaotic. While this wouldn’t necessarily be a bad thing, I can’t imagine the outrage if something like this were to happen. (xD)
     
  15. I'd love to see a genuine take on classic Sonic 2D gameplay, in third-person view.

    No homing attack.

    No stupid story.

    No hub world.

    No unnecessary friends.

    Nature VS technology.

    Psychedelic worlds.

    Physics based gameplay.

    NO HUMANS
     
  16. I got motion sickness from Episode 2's camera, funnily enough. All that zooming in and out
     
  17. No fun.

    In all seriousness, the closest you have to that is Sonic Utopia.
     
  18. Azookara

    Azookara

    take it from me, little buddy Member
    3,002
    34
    28
    Meowth's party
    hoboagogo?
    That'd be pretty boring and regressive. Not even to mention that most of those demands have been met to various extents in recent games (no friends, psychedelic worlds, no hub, no humans, minimal story..) but they didn't actually improve anything.

    Most of these ideas are fine and can be good, and I'd argue in multiple instances they've already been good. It's the execution that makes or breaks these things.

    I was referring to SA1. When moving top speed, just slightly pressing the stick left or right yanks him in that direction rather than subtly veering him that way.
     
  19. Beltway

    Beltway

    Temptive Bongwater, Sealed in Can Member
    1,351
    14
    18
    Sega of Darkest Peru
    college courses / anime trash crusader
    I'm gonna just focus on gameplay for this post, there are probably some ideas/preferences I'd ask for the other departments, but for now, gameplay is the main topic I want to talk about.

    I'd argue there are at least two elephants in the room that needs to be addressed before anything can be done with 3D Sonic:

    1. The whole "Sonic is all about speed" mentality towards Sonic is a detriment towards good platforming design, 3D and 2D.

    If you've been reading my complaints about contemporary 3D Sonic gameplay you probably know what I'm talking about, but for the uninitiated. Automation across the board (including but not limited to dash panels/speed boosters across every stage with the same design and same function, and the "Hot-Wheels-tracks-over-bottomless-pits" level design template for nearly every stage). Excessive scripting of movement, in both the core controls and certain mechanics (such as the aforementioned dash panels, springs, grind rails, etc.). Certain mechanics being overpowered/pigeonholed to the point of being default/sole mechanic for any platforming challenge (attacking enemies, building speed, object interaction, etc.); big offenders here are abilities such as the Homing Attack, the Boost, and the Rolling Combo from S4E2. And everything in-between those departments. They're collectively overruling any and every other aspect game design for Sonic gameplay. Needs to be at best, drastically reduced; at worst, put in the bin completely.

    I do think however there is one exception, where having the "Sonic is all about speed" design philosophy dictate the game design actually works to the gameplay benefit; which leads into point 2:

    2. The Boost gameplay is very ill-suited for the 3D platforming genre and should be stop being pushed in that category.

    I'm not among those who fights for the Boost gameplay (which is arguably the zenith of the "Sonic is all about speed" mindset) to be trashed outright, and I can confidently say that I have and can derive some enjoyment out of it. But I think it's evident that most of the praise for the playstyle is aimed at when it's very obviously not trying to engage in 3D platforming. I have virtually never seen any positive remarks for when it does, the sections where it departs from high speed thrills in favor of actually having to navigate around platforms and enemies that can't be merely blazed past. The gameplay pace is jarringly interrupted for very rudimentary platforming challenges that call for significantly slower movement, which is further undermined by controls that don't have half the polish for slower, 360 degree movement than it does for faster, linear movement and feel much clunkier to operate as a result. The highly specific structure of the gameplay also does not allow for many facets of design that are visible in other 3D platformers, Sonic or otherwise, that I'd argue that myself and others would like to see revisited and/or experimented with in 3D Sonic platformers. Keep making Boost games, but spin them off and adjust them into the racing genre where the playstyle they're renowned for fits that genre much better; and brand them as the series' flagship in that department instead of the flagship for 3D platforming.

    Unless those two rules are addressed by the developers they get for the next 3D Sonic (Sonic Team/CS2 or otherwise), I don't really think much good can be done with 3D Sonic, unfortunately.
     
    Last edited: Mar 27, 2020
  20. Vanishing Vision

    Vanishing Vision

    Member
    19
    10
    3
    Generations actually does have some pretty good 3D platforming in Sky Sanctuary, Seaside Hill, Crisis City, Rooftop Run and Planet Wisp. You let off the boost and see how quickly you can scramble through the platforming before taking off again once you've cleared it, like slowing down for corners and then accelerating out of them in racing. You can even use a few well-placed taps of boost to cut through a little quicker.

    Unleashed has some in Dragon Road and Skyscraper Scamper as well, but they're not as well integrated.
     
    • Agree Agree x 2
    • Like Like x 1
    • List