Discussion in 'General Sonic Discussion' started by TheOneAndOnlyJoebro64, Mar 23, 2020.
Actually I just want crush 40 again. I miss Jonny’s voice.
I already know what I don't want the music to be. You know you've screwed up when I'd rather listen to Sonic 4's fake-mega drive sound that whatever sleep paralysis demon that was.
You need to. He's a master of mixing natural sounds associated with the environment you're in with the background music. His work on Donkey Kong Country: Tropical Freeze is easily one of the greatest soundtracks ever produced for a video game. For example:
I feel like if he could bring a similar approach of music to a Sonic game and make something absolutely stunning. I actually like to use his music when I play Sonic CD with a custom soundtrack; Fear Factory from DKC1 really suits Metallic Madness present, as does Frozen Factory from TF (a super slow, melancholy remix of FF) in the bad future.
Ah, that explains it. I don't really play any Nintendo games. His music seems pretty solid.
Keep Gamma for his storyline and cut Amy and Big out. Those two are actually worthless to the game and I say this as a person who likes Amy.
Next person to compose...Ohtani. But it's because I adore their work. Senoue and Lopes have been on the top of their game too - TSR has some of my favorite music of any post-06 Sonic title.
I actually am not on board with having anyone from Nintendo do the OST, because that's a "flavor" that is totally different to Sonic's aesthetic. It's very...rounded off to me I guess? Even the Metroid OSTs, which I adore, have an aesthetic specific to Metroid and only Metroid. Modern Sonic has drum & bass and electro house in it, stuff that you can picture yourself listening to in a setting far from video games. Running into drum & bass Rhythm and Balance on the Sonic Forces OST made me lose my shit.
I’d gladly take almost any approach that doesn’t result in one composer handling an entire soundtrack by themselves. Lopes’s soundtrack for Mania was great, but that’s an exception surrounded by Ohtani’s solo work on LW/Runners/Forces and Senone’s solo work on the Sonic 4 games, which ranged from being broadly forgettable with a few standout tracks, to being actively aggravating on the ears at times.
A fair of people have been calling for multiple composers again as we had with Unleashed, Colors, and TSR, which to me seems like the way to go.
Mania's soundtrack is mainly composed of remixes of tracks made by various composers. Not trying to diss Tee Lopes (his work is phenomenal), but that's probably why the soundtrack feels so varied, despise being the work of one guy.
Anyways, I'm personally not too bothered by a solo soundtrack for the next Sonic game. Both Forces and Runners have my favorite ost of any Sonic game, and Lost World's ost was neat too.
...what I'm trying to say is that I really fuckin' like Ohtani’s work
I also really enjoyed the music on Forces. The "Classic" tunes were garbage, but everything else is pretty solid. I could listen to Set In Motion all day.
I actually liked most of the classic Sonic music in Forces. Ghost Town is my favorite track in the game, I thought Casino Forest and Chemical Flow were pretty good, and Faded Hills, despite having the harshest instruments, has a solid melody. Death Prison and Iron Fortress were the only two that I can't say I really liked.
I liked 4's music as well, particularly Lost Labyrinth 1 and Oil Desert 1. It and the Forces classic music are certainly not as good as 1-3&K/CD/Mania, but I was never too bothered by the harsh instruments and feel that good melodies shine through despite them.
I truthfully think it would be more commendable if they made Big WORK than just cutting him out. A platforming/fishing minigame hybrid could work on paper (I mean Heroes and Big's Fishing Derby stand as evidence) it's just the execution wasn't brilliant. The fishing had to be less tedius, and there had to be more for Big to do on-foot, maybe make his reel attack have a better radius and give him his body slam from Heroes. Hell just give him a bigger platform area and have some objects for him to throw around.
I commend they did at least have an intention for Big; the chill out campaign when you didn't want to rush through a game, they just needed to fine tune it a good deal to still be FUN.
As for Big being disconnected from the game, I feel like that was kind of the POINT, that he was the rando that had only tacit involvement in the whole thing without ever figuring out the big picture. I think it might have worked however if said tacit involvement felt more worthwhile or the POV worked giving the main plan a different fun perspective. I dunno, it feels like a lot was cut out of Adventure, maybe he was meant to trek around the story a bit more and bungle in some key plot devices (eg. unknowingly leave some of the emeralds for Sonic to find).
Amy's is harder to define, her involvement is pretty minor, mostly that one emerald Birdie has and turning Gamma (who also depletes in main story involvement afterwards). That said I also begrudge getting rid of her or Gamma. They actually two of the most fun and developed gameplays after Sonic (you can kinda see why Amy's story is so short though, her involvement is pretty limited, even her final level is padding that she had no point going through).
Yes. Adding to this, it would be awesome, and hilarious if the other, more relevant story events sometimes literally played out in the background of Big's stages/story, as weird and random out of context moments (basically the inverse of Big's cameos in SA2 and Secret Rings).
That's kind of the genius of Sonic Adventure's story, everything is played from a POV. Of course some events would be more or less important from other's perspective. The thing with Knuckles messing the Egg Carrier's altitude in Sky Deck is a pretty clever tacit detail for example.
I think the main issue is that most of the best cases of succinct importance still came from the main stories. It made Big's PERSPECTIVE work for example, but maybe not his whole role in the big picture. Like you could buy Big accidentally chaining off a few things that ended up really key in Sonic or Tails' story but were fleeting in his own. He's still arguably the best for this compared to Amy or Gamma (he and Froggy bring two emeralds into the main picture), but still a bit limited. Like maybe if the supposed 'tail' for Chaos had more lore importance or something, it would be vital that Big got it out when reviewing the main story, but he doesn't give a crap about that key detail, you don't track Chaos in his story, just getting his buddy back, so it would still fit perfectly.
I'd have loved if the E-100 models had been given some sort of mission by Eggman when Gamma tracked them for this reason too. We only hear it in Sonic's story maybe, and when Eggman commands for them to stop Sonic, he gets nothing, they're all down for some reason, thus Gamma's final act indirectly helped the main conflict (which would also mean Amy indirectly did too by turning him in the first place). Clever chain reactions like that that make every story fold together without taking away how self focused they are.
Arguably a reason several of SA1's playstyles were so different to each other was to act as a tech demo of sorts for the Dreamcast. There's no reason to do that now, Sega has no new console to show off. So why needlessly deviate so far from the reason you're buying the game? People bought SA1 for Sonic's story, not so much the others (especially Big and Gamma's; as much as I think Gamma's is - his gameplay aside - the most interesting from a story point of view).
Exact same reason the Chao Gardens are best kept to a separate mobile phone app, which I will again say is a surefire moneymaker as an F2P game that Sega for some reason hasn't made.
When it comes to a Sonic Adventure remake I'd be all for a re-imagining, rather than strict adherence to the original, but dropping the other playable characters and Chao Gardens would just antagonise the audience a Sonic Adventure remake would have. It would veer too far away from the spirit of the original.
It just occurred me... A hypothetical re-imagining of SA1 could have only 3 relevant stories, Sonic, Tails, Knux.
Then a small portion of each story could be dedicated to one of the other 3 relevant stories, Amy, Big, Gamma.
That way, the game itself wouldn't fully bring them back and could keep them in the overall story, in some way.
I'd rather they kept the six separate campaigns really, being FORCED to play as them midway through another character's story would just exacerbate the situation (imagine how much MORE people would loathe Big if they had to complete a fishing level just to reach the next Sonic one).
I'm on the agreement about keeping the overall spirit and setup of SA1 while still fine-tuning it really. You change it too much and it may as well be another game. You don't have to homogenise the whole thing for it to be good, it just needs to be better realised. Big's Fishing Derby proves you can make fishing fun in a Sonic game.
A key problem with SA1 was that due to its tech demo visualisation and being on a very rushed deadline, a lot of the stuff is kind of half baked. Sonic's campaign is top of the bunch not just because it is the more conventional gameplay, but because it is more fully developed, loads more well designed levels and a good variation of mechanics and gimmicks the whole way. It feels like a full game even with the rough edges. The other campaigns have signs of greatness but are far less polished and complete, Tails and Big in particular are kind of one note minigames that don't evolve as they continue, while Amy and Knuckles' physics and mechanics aren't quite fine tuned. Gamma's gameplay is pretty good, but his levels often feel like they were stopped midway into development they're that short. It's clear they prioritised finishing Sonic first (which is for the best) and weren't given enough time to customise everyone else (which is a shame).
I think they would need to stick with the story being told through 6 POVs, since the whole plot is built around that narrative device.
Amy and Gamma's campaigns are still linear reach-the-goal platformers, unlike Knuckles'. Not that Knuckles' campaign couldn't be changed to a reach-the-goal platformer, with Master Emerald shards at the end of each stage. That's the kind of choice they'd have to make - bring the other characters' gameplay more in-line with Sonic's, or keep the differences but make them more fun and involved? Maybe even a bit of both? Gamma wouldn't be Gamma without the shooting, but he still had the high speed platforming that SA2's shooting stages lacked, so could that part of it be steered into a more Sonic-like direction?
Even Sonic's campaign would need a massive overhaul. 10 small Action Stages makes for a very slight game. I'm sure we'd all want the controls/feel/physics to be improved upon, and the level layouts would need to be updated in response to those changes. They could go in the Sonic Mania/Sonic Generations direction and use the original maps as a springboard for something new and expanded. And why not give each Action Stage two Acts? Speed Highway Act 1 could be the night section and Act 2 could be the "at dawn" section. Why not have a boss after each stage? One of Eggman's robots could show up at any point without interfering with the plot. Could Casinopolis be a proper level, instead of centering around the pinball mini-games? If the pinball tables stay, could they be reworked into something better, like Generations' very competent pinball DLC? (And shouldn't they be selectable from the Mini Games menu this time?) Sky Chase is another one (another two!) - it's very slight and plodding and rudimentary. Replace it with a cut-scene, flesh it out into a more competent shooter, or somehow try and make it more Sonicy? Same goes for the character battles (Sonic vs Knuckles, Sonic vs Gamma, etc.) - they could barely even be called gameplay. So replace them with cut scenes, or turn them into proper boss battles that require strategy? Are the wind and ice stone "puzzles" necessary? Should they be replaced with actual puzzles, or removed entirely? Could the cut scenes be individually scored this time, instead of awkward stop-starts with the characters' theme songs blaring in the background?
And what features to increase replayability? A Sonic Adventure 2 style scoring system is a must, but Red Star Rings and bonus missions (get 100 rings etc.) wouldn't go amiss either.
A Sonic Adventure remake is such a simple idea on paper, but making it a reality would come with hundreds of decisions where there isn't necessarily a single correct answer. But it would have to be more of a "Samus Returns" than a "Link's Awakening", because Sonic Adventure's gameplay just doesn't hold up to today's standards.
Tbh, I think Gamma's gameplay is second place to Sonic's, so I wouldn't be too thrilled in theory about removing it. THAT SAID, if their idea of "modernizing" it would be to just make it like SA2's, forget it.
I don't think removing the chao garden would be good either, not just because it's basically the one thing people remember extremely fondly from the game, but because the Chao in SA1 are actually plot relevant - Tikal mentions to Chaos after he is finally defeated that Chao are now living happily in the modern day, and that is implied to be what is keeping him from trying to fly into another thousand-year-rage.
Hahahahaha nuke those worthless things
I definitely think to 'fully realise' Sonic Adventure, they'd at least have to research a great deal what the original developers' intent was for a more finished product, what was intended if they'd gotten a fuller time on it and what they wanted to iron out. In terms of adding new stuff, I think that needs to be done delicately and more exclusively in terms of what would make the original content flow better (adding new levels for example I think is a delicate dance, they'd likely have to still be relevant to story positions in the original game, likely to bridge some of the more cutscene heavy areas). A lot of stuff was reused and refined upon in later games after all so we have some idea how they could flesh it out parts of the game.
Even some bits of polish could be done very tacitly with the general not even noticing at first glance. Let's say for example Knuckles' emerald searching gameplay is exactly the same, however the approach of loading the emeralds each time is more intricate. Let's say they always have three randomised emerald locations that follow a similar pattern, 1 is the easiest emerald close to the starting point, 2 is further in and encourages you to master the basic controls and level layout, 3 is furthest away and really tests you looking each nook and cranny. The locations change each time and the radar still locates them all at once, but the fact they always follow this sort of structure would still give the feel of a more progressive level layout, giving it more of a smoother A to B feel but without compromising or forcing the gameplay to work differently from before like say SA2 tried to do with its nerfed radar and enforced puzzles.
I actually feel like a lot of the last levels for all the characters are the fuller displays of how to do their gameplay. Tails downplays cheesing levels with boost rings and utilises more unique short cuts and pathways, Knuckles' emerald searching makes more use of level gimmicks, Amy's puzzles force you to be more evasive of Zero, Gamma's level length is longer with a harder boss, the breeze through sections also making it easier to miss targets, all of which trickling away at his timer more effectively, Big has a bit more of an even platforming/fishing balance (the unused sections also imply Big was meant to be more puzzle involved as well, maybe this was discarded because it wasn't straight forward enough).
Separate names with a comma.