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Was Mushroom Hill meant to be a Knuckles Exclusive?

Discussion in 'General Sonic Discussion' started by BlackHole, Jun 7, 2009.

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  1. nineko

    nineko

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    <!--quoteo(post=367660:date=Oct 30 2009, 02:01 PM:name=Commadoo)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Commadoo @ Oct 30 2009, 02:01 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=367660">[​IMG]</a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->uh, tails can't die.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->Sorry, I couldn't resist.
    [​IMG]
     
  2. RedStripedShoes

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    <!--quoteo(post=367689:date=Oct 30 2009, 09:54 AM:name=nineko)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (nineko @ Oct 30 2009, 09:54 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=367689">[​IMG]</a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=367660:date=Oct 30 2009, 02:01 PM:name=Commadoo)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Commadoo @ Oct 30 2009, 02:01 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=367660">[​IMG]</a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->uh, tails can't die.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->Sorry, I couldn't resist.
    [​IMG]
    <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    AHAHAHAhahahaha... oh, wow. :v:

    And I refuse to believe that Kenny's coat matches Tails color without there being some underlying conspiracy involving Stone/Parker and/or Sega.
     
  3. JDAdams

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    You know, I really don't see how Sonic's story can be first. Just going to check a few things, but IIRC, Knuckles' story seems to come first.
     
  4. <!--quoteo(post=367834:date=Oct 30 2009, 10:17 PM:name=JDAdams)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (JDAdams @ Oct 30 2009, 10:17 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=367834">[​IMG]</a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You know, I really don't see how Sonic's story can be first. Just going to check a few things, but IIRC, Knuckles' story seems to come first.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    I stand by my view that (in Sonic and Knuckles at least) they take place at the same time. S3K complicates things though, with the fancy backrounds and whatnot. I suppose the stories are almost independent of each other, so are interchangable. The main reason to believe Sonic and Tails comes first is because of EggRobo showing that Robotnik has been present before, but he may have been sent in to take care of Knuckles beforehand.
     
  5. Splatter

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    Well, like NeKit said, defeating Mecha Sonic as Sonic appears to just disable the robot, while beating it as Knuckles blows it to pieces. It's possible Eggman built two of them, but I think the implication is that it's the same Mecha Sonic in both characters' stories, which would mean Sonic's takes place first. Knuckles also comes across the broken capsule in Sandopolis that Sonic released the ghosts from.

    Personally, I don't take Knuckles' story literally. Even if it's not a total "what if?" like Knuckles in Sonic 2, Knuckles' S3&K stages just weren't redesigned enough to believably take place after (or before, or during) Sonic's. If you set fire to a area (I.e. Angel Island Zone), wait 'till it burns out, then firebomb it a second time, the second fire shouldn't look exactly like the first. Lots of stuff that Sonic breaks should still be broken: the poles and walls in Hydrocity, the pillars in Icecap, the sand corks in Sandopolis... At best, I would say that an Eggrobo and Mecha Sonic started some shit with Knuckles sometime after Sonic's ending, but the events of that incident don't necessarily resemble what happens while playing as Knuckles.

    I think of Sonic Heros in the same fashion. Obviously, some version of the four teams' stories is supposed to happen, but it's a bit much for the Egg Hawk/Albatross/Emperor to each be blown-up four times while faux-Eggman recites the same lines.
     
  6. Zephyr

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    <!--quoteo(post=367693:date=Oct 30 2009, 08:04 AM:name=RedStripedShoes)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (RedStripedShoes @ Oct 30 2009, 08:04 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=367693">[​IMG]</a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=367689:date=Oct 30 2009, 09:54 AM:name=nineko)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (nineko @ Oct 30 2009, 09:54 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=367689">[​IMG]</a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=367660:date=Oct 30 2009, 02:01 PM:name=Commadoo)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Commadoo @ Oct 30 2009, 02:01 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=367660">[​IMG]</a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->uh, tails can't die.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->Sorry, I couldn't resist.
    [​IMG]
    <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    AHAHAHAhahahaha... oh, wow. :v:

    And I refuse to believe that Kenny's coat matches Tails color without there being some underlying conspiracy involving Stone/Parker and/or Sega.
    <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    [​IMG]

    Bad edit aside, its more matching.

    <!--quoteo(post=367942:date=Oct 30 2009, 07:28 PM:name=Splatter)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Splatter @ Oct 30 2009, 07:28 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=367942">[​IMG]</a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Well, like NeKit said, defeating Mecha Sonic as Sonic appears to just disable the robot, while beating it as Knuckles blows it to pieces. It's possible Eggman built two of them, but I think the implication is that it's the same Mecha Sonic in both characters' stories, which would mean Sonic's takes place first. Knuckles also comes across the broken capsule in Sandopolis that Sonic released the ghosts from.

    Personally, I don't take Knuckles' story literally. Even if it's not a total "what if?" like Knuckles in Sonic 2, Knuckles' S3&K stages just weren't redesigned enough to believably take place after (or before, or during) Sonic's. If you set fire to a area (I.e. Angel Island Zone), wait 'till it burns out, then firebomb it a second time, the second fire shouldn't look exactly like the first. Lots of stuff that Sonic breaks should still be broken: the poles and walls in Hydrocity, the pillars in Icecap, the sand corks in Sandopolis... At best, I would say that an Eggrobo and Mecha Sonic started some shit with Knuckles sometime after Sonic's ending, but the events of that incident don't necessarily resemble what happens while playing as Knuckles.

    I think of Sonic Heros in the same fashion. Obviously, some version of the four teams' stories is supposed to happen, but it's a bit much for the Egg Hawk/Albatross/Emperor to each be blown-up four times while faux-Eggman recites the same lines.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->



    To be fair, many of those things that Sonic may or may not have broken are only so according to how the player played through Sonic's story. There could be a 'canon path' that Sonic took though too.

    And I believe Eggman was really Metal Sonic in disguise through those four stories.
     
  7. The <a href="http://forums.sonicretro.org/index.php?s=&showtopic=15926&view=findpost&p=327302" target="_blank">"It was all a dream" theory</a> is an ass-pull, but it works.
     
  8. Phos

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    It seem to me that they can't take place at the same time, unless you take them as alternate histories of each other. You never encounter Sonic during Knuckles's game, and the Master Emerald can't be in both places.
     
  9. Jayextee

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    <!--quoteo(post=367834:date=Oct 30 2009, 10:17 PM:name=JDAdams)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (JDAdams @ Oct 30 2009, 10:17 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=367834">[​IMG]</a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You know, I really don't see how Sonic's story can be first. Just going to check a few things, but IIRC, Knuckles' story seems to come first.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    Sandopolis Zone, act 2.

    Sonic releases the ghosts, which are already present when Knuckles starts the stage. This is about the only solid thing to suggest the stories don't run concurrently.

    EDIT
    How and why is it so hard to accept as an alternate story? Yeah, a "what if" of sorts, but more plausible than that of Knuckles in Sonic 2. You know, it's simple -- one of the badniks Robotnik designed after himself (Egg-Robo) simply attacked the wrong guy, revealing to Knuckles to the culprit really is, well before the event in HPZ. (Yeah yeah, I know... Master Emerald. At this point I throw my hands up and retreat back to my corner, muttering something about narrative being a crutch for ludological constructs.... =P)
     
  10. <!--quoteo(post=368070:date=Oct 31 2009, 01:36 PM:name=Jayextee)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Jayextee @ Oct 31 2009, 01:36 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=368070">[​IMG]</a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Sonic releases the ghosts, which are already present when Knuckles starts the stage. This is about the only solid thing to suggest the stories don't run concurrently.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--><!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The ghosts appearing in the second half are the first enemies who weren't made by Eggman. When he infiltrated the pyramid, he must have worked very hard to trap them inside that box.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->Suggests they were only trapped when Eggman arrived, which he may not have done yet.

    <!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->How and why is it so hard to accept as an alternate story?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->This. Tails' story in Sonic 2 can be assumed alternate, otherwise we'd all be going OMFG WHYS HE ON WING FORETRESS. In this situation, Sonic Team at least tryed to make Knuckles story more logical.

    Wait, at the end of Sonic's Good Ending, don't you see an EggRobo rising from the scrap, or something? I'd say that's enough to prove Knuckles' story came afterwards.
     
  11. MainMemory

    MainMemory

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    <!--quoteo(post=368075:date=Oct 31 2009, 09:06 AM:name=JakeyBoy)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (JakeyBoy @ Oct 31 2009, 09:06 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=368075">[​IMG]</a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Wait, at the end of Sonic's Good Ending, don't you see an EggRobo rising from the scrap, or something? I'd say that's enough to prove Knuckles' story came afterwards.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    I remember seeing that, but I think it only happens in Sonic & Knuckles. S3K just gives you the logo screen.

    Edit:
    [​IMG]
     
  12. Varion Icaria

    Varion Icaria

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    Hm that's very interesting I stumbled across the Egg Robo end art but never remember seeing it in the game. Should I check the code in my disassembly later on to see if it checks the connection flag?
     
  13. amphobius

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    I distinctly remember seeing the Egg Robo after completing Sonic and Tails' game in S3K. I also had not started a save with Knuckles.

    IIRC it was to tell you to go play as Knuckles, as my brother told me.
     
  14. STHX

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    <!--quoteo(post=368095:date=Oct 31 2009, 06:04 PM:name=DalekSam)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (DalekSam @ Oct 31 2009, 06:04 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=368095">[​IMG]</a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I distinctly remember seeing the Egg Robo after completing Sonic and Tails' game in S3K. I also had not started a save with Knuckles.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    In Sonic 3 & Knuckels, finishing the game with all the Super Emeralds gives you the logo with the 3 characters. Finishing the game with the 7 Chaos Emeralds (or 7 Chaos and less than 7 Super) gives you the original good ending (in Sonic's case, or with Sonic & Tails, the Egg Robo cutscene).
    Doesn't matter if you never played with Knuckles.
     
  15. amphobius

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    <!--quoteo(post=368127:date=Oct 31 2009, 05:07 PM:name=STHX)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (STHX @ Oct 31 2009, 05:07 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=368127">[​IMG]</a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=368095:date=Oct 31 2009, 06:04 PM:name=DalekSam)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (DalekSam @ Oct 31 2009, 06:04 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=368095">[​IMG]</a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I distinctly remember seeing the Egg Robo after completing Sonic and Tails' game in S3K. I also had not started a save with Knuckles.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    In Sonic 3 & Knuckels, finishing the game with all the Super Emeralds gives you the logo with the 3 characters. Finishing the game with the 7 Chaos Emeralds (or 7 Chaos and less than 7 Super) gives you the original good ending (in Sonic's case, or with Sonic & Tails, the Egg Robo cutscene).
    Doesn't matter if you never played with Knuckles.
    <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    Well that explains a good deal—I never get all the Super Emeralds first try.
     
  16. STHX

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    If I remember well, there is also a different clear picture in a file with all 7 Super Emeralds to simbolize this (all 3 characters versus only the one playable).
    Man, it's been so long since I finished S3K without collecting all Super Emeralds I almost forgot there was an alternate good ending and an alternate clear picture.

    I always found curious how Sonic cannot turn Super anymore after he enters the first S&K Glowing Ring, yet he suddenly turns Super for Doomsday, even if he technically doesn't have any Emerald with him nor got every Super Emerald.
     
  17. Varion Icaria

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    I thought Sonic needed all the super Emeralds to go to Doomsday?
     
  18. 0r4ng3

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    With being Super Sonic and collecting no more emeralds, right? I didn't know this. I thought the moment you entered that ring, you had to collect all of the emeralds anyway. I did know that you could transport the chaos emeralds from S3 and collect them in S&K but this is new to me.
     
  19. BlackHole

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    <!--quoteo(post=368241:date=Oct 31 2009, 10:52 PM:name=Varion Icaria)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Varion Icaria @ Oct 31 2009, 10:52 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=368241">[​IMG]</a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I thought Sonic needed all the super Emeralds to go to Doomsday?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    Nope, just the Chaos Emeralds, otherwise Sonic and Knuckles players would be screwed.
     
  20. Overlord

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    To clarify - you can go to Doomsday if you have all the Chaos Emeralds or all the Super Emeralds. If you go to Hidden Palace at all via a Big Ring in S&K then you won't be able to get to Doomsday until you've got all the Super Emeralds.
     
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