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Various Gameplay?

Discussion in 'General Sonic Discussion' started by Jay T., Apr 16, 2010.

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  1. Jay T.

    Jay T.

    It takes an idiot to do cool things... Member
    I remember posting this on the Sonic Stadium before everything got wiped out and they had to start over. I don't remember what I posted since that was years ago, but whatever. Let's try that here.

    Okay, with each new Sonic game, some characters are usually more different than their past versions in terms of what they can do, like how Tails can use his two tails to smack the living daylights out of a badnik to using bomb rings, or how Shadow plays almost exactly like Sonic to using armed weapons, to having his own set of moves, along with his Chaos attacks.

    For the future games, I do wonder if they'll make another attempt at something Adventure 1&2 or even Sonic 2006 like in terms of gameplay, allowing multiple characters to have their own abilities and such. It's most likely gonna happen, but how should each character play, if they were to appear again, is the question.

    How do you think characters like Sonic, Tails, Knuckles, Shadow, Amy, Blaze, and any other possible characters should play in the future if another Adventure-like (or 2006, without the glitchfest) like game were to appear once again?
     
  2. RedStripedShoes

    RedStripedShoes

    And I'm gone again. Member
    Each character should have 3 stats which define their basic abilities: Speed, Attack, Jump Power; and 1-3 special skills to use.

    Sonic
    Speed: 100
    Attack: 70
    Jump Power: 85
    Skill: Homing Attack

    Tails
    Speed: 85
    Attack: 70
    Jump Power: 100
    Skill: Flight

    Knuckles
    Speed: 70
    Attack: 100
    Jump Power: 70
    Skill 1: Glide
    Skill 2: Wall Climb
    Skill 3: Punch

    And so forth.
     
  3. Adding and modifying the previous post.
    Yeah, I like the idea of stats, but 3 just makes it too Sonic Heroes...maybe a bit more is needed

    5 stats + Special
    -Speed
    -Acceleration/deceleration
    -Power
    -jump
    -control (I.e, handling)
    Homing attack as standard for speed characters

    Sonic

    Speed - 100
    Acc/Decc - 95
    Power - 65
    Jump - 85
    Control - 90

    Special -Spindash?, Sonic Boom (see: Chaos Blast), Sonic Wind (see: Team Blast type manouvre)

    Tails

    Speed - 70
    Acc/Decc - 85
    Power - 50
    Jump - 100
    Control - 100

    Special - Flight, Aircraft (special Tails-only zones)

    Knuckles

    Speed - 80
    Acc/Decc - 65
    Power - 100
    Jump - 65
    Control - 95

    Special - Gliding, Beat-em-up, Wall Climbing

    Shadow

    Speed - 100
    Acc/Decc - 95
    Power - 85
    Jump - 85
    Control - 65

    Special - Spindash, Chaos Blast, Chaos Spear
     
  4. Azookara

    Azookara

    yup Member
    As completely different and as clashing to the classic Sonic gameplay style as possible :eng101:

    But really, I think the exact opposite of what I just said. Each and every character should have their own statistics, yes, but they should all play at least 90% like the general gameplay: you're fast enough to run up loops, you can jump and you can roll. A character could probably have a special ability set to another button, but besides that and the traditional air ability, controls would be practically the same.

    However every character would have their advantages and disadvantages. Sonic would be the fastest and with decent accel but with poor handling; Tails would be best handling with decent top speed but a slow accel; Knuckles has best accel but with slowest top speed and decent handling, etc. etc. etc. and other characters will sort of be mixtures of these combinations, but will be made sure to not have better top speed than Sonic (maybe at most just equal; like for Shadow or Blaze). "Slow" speed people won't be Nextgen or Labyrinth slow either. The variation between these traits isn't really that big of a difference, as they'll all only be slightly different from each other. It'll feel about the same variation as it was in SA1.

    You know what, think of this as a 3D game that plays like a mix of the classics in mechanics, but with several moves like from Unleashed.

    Controls could lay out like this to keep the moves seperate from each other:
    A Button - Jump, mid-air ability
    B Button / Left Trigger - Attack
    X Button / Right Trigger - Spindash, Roll
    Y Button - common action (like grab, throw, push, etc.)

    Characters would go like this:
    . Sonic the Hedgehog - traditional Sonic gameplay. The most bare bones character. Can use shield abilities in mid-air when a shield is gained, and when not used it is an "air slash". Has a (short-range) homing attack (reset to the attack button). Ground attack is a Super Peel-Out that gives Sonic a high speed jolt, although without protection.
    . Miles Tails Prower - pretty similar to Sonic, except he can fly through air and swim through water. His ground attack is a repetitive tail whip ala SA1, and in midair it does a vertical tail sweep similar in vein to Banjo & Kazooie's swipe attack from Nuts & Bolts. He also has specific plane minigame levels built for him.
    . Knuckles the Echidna - has to fight more hordes of enemies than the usual character does. His air ability is a glide that allows him to sift through air and water. He can also use his knuckles to climb walls, and run into walls straightforward to tear them down with ease. His attack is a punching combo and his air attack is an uppercut.
    . Amy Rose Hedgehog - slower than the usual character, she also can't do a spin jump or Spindash (though she can still roll when gaining enough speed). However she can double jump and use her hammer to vault her forward and gain speed, and also she has to use her hammer and her main weapon to take down enemies, because without it, she's completely vulnerable.
    . Espio the Chameleon - uses parkour and chameleon abilities to climb up walls without having to jump (only needing momentum), and can ram straight into enemies while running and destroy them thanks to the horn on his forehead. His attacks consist of using his tounge as a whip to smack stuff. He also jumps like a pirouette.
    . Charmy Bee - is the only character that plays significantly different. He doesn't jump as he already hovers (although you can make him go on the ground). You press jump to fly higher and the roll button to go lower, and to roll / Spindash when pushed downward against the ground. His attacks are made of where you shoot stinger projectiles.
    . Vector the Crocodile - has attacks similar to the Werehog, but set to one button because you have a roll and Spindash. However using the roll button, the jump button and the attack button in combo-like sequences could lead to satisfying results. ( I was thinking of this to go with Knuckles, but Knuckles has enough abilities so this would go best with Vector.)
    . Shadow the Hedgehog - works almost exactly like Gamma from SA1 but is as fast as Sonic and has a roll/Spindash. He has a hover ability (thanks to his rocket boots) and has a crazy-shooter lockon system. But don't worry, he shoots with Chaos Spears.
    . Blaze the Cat - is the most speed-based and the boost-centric character in the game (considering she came from Sonic Rush and all). The only thing is that her top speed isn't 795LOLOLOL like from Unleashed and Rush, but just Sonic's peelout speed. She also gets a boost like off Sadv2 where when you have enough rings and move at a certain speed for a certain amount of time you blast off with fire surrounding you, but if you go like that head-on for too long with it, you overheat, start steaming, and slow back down to walking speed. Your air ability is a mini double-jump, and your attack is Blaze doing a dash forward in a fireball state for a super-small amount of time.
    . Silver the Hedgehog - he's about the second slowest character, but he can still go fast enough to run up loops if he gains momentum through a spindash. Silver also doesn't have a spin jump, leaving him vulnerable in just about every predicament but when spindashing or rolling. He uses an energy bar and both his air ability and his psychokinesis attacks depend on it to be used. His air move is a short-lived hover that only goes forward and abruptly stops (referencing the glitchy physics in Nextgen :v: ). His attacks are psychokinesis powers that allow him to pick up objects with his mind and throw them around.

    That's all I can think of for now; I'm tired of doing this. Will post more later.
     
  5. Herm the Germ

    Herm the Germ

    Hmm, not bad. Well done, doctor! Member
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    MIDI-to-SMPS-conversions, mostly. Takin' requests, too.
    'twas just fine the way the adventure series handled it in my opinion. So... yeah, they should have it something alike to that again.
     
  6. trakker

    trakker

    The guy that's been warned! Member
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    Dude, you forgot Swim
     
  7. McGuirk

    McGuirk

    The Egg-Man Cometh. Member
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    Making a Full-Sized Egg Carrier in Minecraft.
    S3K has pretty well shaped my views on gameplay. Between Sonic, Tails, and Knuckles, I think they should all have the same base speed and movement (perhaps Knuckles has slightly less acceleration than the other two), as well as the ability to spindash. There would be a few differences in the details, however:

    Jump Height:
    I think that, as true to S3/K, Knuckles should fall a bit short when it comes to jumping (If that's a pun, it wasn't intended). Likewise, I feel that for purely pedantic reasons, Sonic's jump height should be a bit more than Tails' (stronger legs and whatnot). Of course, this is almost pointless as Tails can just fly if he wants to go somewhere high.

    Swimming:
    Knuckles can swim, Tails can swim exceptionally well, and Sonic can swim like a brick.

    Special Abilities:
    Sonic - I've always liked the idea of Sonic being considerably faster than the other characters, but at the same time having similar base gameplay. My compromise idea here is having some sort of a 'let loose' button that would allow Sonic to start moving at a pace closer to his full speed. This would include a partial loss of control, but would increase acceleration, top speed, and possibly jump height. I like the idea of some old-school roll attacks when moving like this. This idea is intended for 3D games; it could work in 2D, but I don't think it would do very well because of the lack of view distance.

    As for the homing attack, I'm fine with it in 3D games, as long as it isn't too gimmicky. It's out of place in 2D games, however.

    Insta-Shield (S3/K) I'm actually quite fond of in 2D games. It adds another dimension to Sonic's gameplay that gives him something to compete with the others' special abilities. Too hard to perform with precision in 3D games.

    Finally, Sonic should be able to run on the surface of water if he's at sufficient speed.

    Tails - The most obvious here are Tails' abilities to fly and swim.

    I think that Tails needs some sort of good in-air attack to compete with Sonic's homing attack in 3D games. Perhaps an in-air tail whip, but that doesn't seem very imaginative. Likewise, I can't think of anything better for the time being...

    Tails, like Sonic, should be able to run on top of water. However, I think that Tails wouldn't need to be going as fast to be able to maintain it because of the way he runs (using his Tails, similar to a fanboat).

    Knuckles - Knuckles staple special abilities are gliding, wall climbing, and punching.

    Knuckles is pretty solid with what he's got, though I'd potentially like to see some sort of special attack added to his glide, something akin to Sonic's homing attack in 3D games. Perhaps when he gets near an enemy when he's gliding, he has an option to auto-aim toward the enemy? Maybe even something like a midair punch.


    I tend to favor a bit a assistance from the game in 3D games (without milking it too much), as cameras can be a pain, and player skill-based precision in 2D titles.
     
  8. Zephyr

    Zephyr

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    Well, I'll start with my idea of the basic control scheme. I will elaborate more tomorrow (I'm fucking dead tired).

    I will list the general controls I believe all (or most at least) characters should have (for a 360 controller).


    A - Jump. Pressing A in midair will activate the character's air action.

    X/B - Attack. Press multiple times for combos, and/or hold for charged attacks. Attacking in midair will of course activate an aerial attack.

    Y - Special Attack. Will have the same function both on the ground and in the air. Some would be chargeable.

    LT/RT - Crouch while stationary/Roll while in motion. I highly doubt that this needs any sort of explaining here though.

    LB/RB - Rev up a Spin Dash while crouched. The more times and the faster you tap either button, the stronger your spindash will be.

    Left Stick - Move your character around.

    Right Stick - Rotate the camera. Click the stick down to center the camera.


    Each character would have a customizable moveset akin to Sonic Battle. Each character would have a variety of attacks, midair attacks, special attacks, and air actions to choose from. Different abilities would be more useful for different obstacles, and some abilities would be required to get past certain obstacles. Even so, there are certain characters who would not be able to reach certain locations with any of their abilities.
     
  9. Kurosan

    Kurosan

    Samurai of Gaming Oldbie
    Admittedly, I really enjoyed how Sonic Adventure handled the way characters are controlled; I would just like the gameplay modes they're given to be different. What I'm saying is, I like the way Tails and Knuckles handle, but I'd like to use them in more "normal" stages instead of special race Sonic and find the emeralds stages.

    So, basically, pretty much what S3&K did but in 3D, SA-style.
     
  10. Bostwick

    Bostwick

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    I'd basically want it to be Sonic Adventure with a crouch button and all characters running through regular stages instead of Race Sonic / Find Emeralds / Escape from Zero / Shoot Enemies / Go Fishing / etc.

    Now, if the game just starred Sonic by himself I'd want him to have a moveset as elaborate as Mario did in Mario 64, but I think that's for another topic...unless somebody wants to hear it.
     
  11. Azookara

    Azookara

    yup Member
    You mean a Sonic designed like Mario Galaxy's controls, but faster (with a slow accel), without swimming and with a roll / Spindash? That would be great if you ask me.
     
  12. RedStripedShoes

    RedStripedShoes

    And I'm gone again. Member
    Swim and Flight are exactly the same thing, just one takes place in water and the other in air.
     
  13. E-122-Psi

    E-122-Psi

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    I think SA1 had it right to an extent, maybe a better balance in character abilities and maneuverability, this would also make multiplayer games easier to implement without a 'game breaker' character existing.

    Most of the characters have a nice balance (par maybe Sonic's infinite spin dash capability, as said adding a croutch button may help limit it a bit more), things started to skew further down the roster. Gamma was a bit slow for a Sonic character but had a decent enough feel and balance to not feel alien from the the main three. Amy and Big however were way to slow and clunky, I could see Amy's gameplay working if she was maybe a bit under Knuckles or Gamma in terms of speed, Big wasn't really intended to be a platformer character though making him slightly more manuevable would have at least made his odd few platforming sections fun (make him a bit faster, but still the lowest speed of the roster and maybe add some basic attacks like his Heroes body slam and rod swing).

    I thought SA1 had added a more authentic feel and mechanic to the cast in comparison to later additions though. In SA2 the treasure hunting and shooting levels feel much clunkier and more alien from the original Sonic mechanics.

    2D isn't as bad but there is a bad balance at times. I just didn't see a huge use in Sonic's insta shield in comparison to Tails and Knuckles' abilities which give maueverablity and help them find secret areas and items. Amy was a character better balanced with advantages and hinderaces the main character didn't have (outside shallow setbacks like Sonic's SLIGHTLY better speed and jump that rarely gives a huge advantage) Cream however was a true gamebreaker.
     
  14. Endgame

    Endgame

    Formerly The Growler Member
    What about some kind of Ground Pound - similar to Hyper Knux's glide-pounding attack? Only it's on the floor (similar to Mario Sunshine's Ground Pound), and it shakes them up a bit.

    Speaking of which, perhaps there could be more use to Knuckles' digging than just searching for emeralds and whatever - perhaps design a level where he can tunnel down to a lower lever or something?
     
  15. Volpino

    Volpino

    Things are looking up! Member
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    A secret. >:3
    Probably a stupid question, but why in the name of video game sanity are you all discussing adding stat rosters to a platformer? Stats are an expected, and often stereotypical mechanic of your garden variety MMORPG, RPG, fighting or sports game, not platformers. It makes them too complicated and restricted and it rarely ever works. The closest thing a platformer should have to stats are a health and magic/power meter that increases with progression.

    I will attempt to sum up what I think the characters should be like in the games, but I will say now that SA1 was doing it right.

    Sonic: He can accelerate the fastest, spindash for quick speed (but he must charge it up) and home attack enemies. In addition, he can wall-jump, which can be used to gain height, jump off a wall that he can run up or, if he is positioned in a crevice or other indent where two walls parallel, he can wall-kick up them to reach heights that might be too high for Tails to fly up without help. He can also light dash across rings and is the only character that can roll into a ball to travel through tubes that can offer shortcuts or lead to secret areas.

    Tails: He can run as fast as Sonic but he doesn't accelerate as fast and when he's at his top speed his steering becomes a bit tighter. He can't spindash but he can roll to avoid some traps, and since he's smaller than Sonic and Knuckles, he can get down on all fours and crawl into tiny holes in walls to reach secrets or shortcuts other characters can't access. In addition to these abilities, he can also fly through the air for a short time using both tails as propellers. He can't go as fast while flying, especially when flying up, but it does help him find new routes. He's also the only character that can swim above and under water. He can also carry other characters while flying, but while swimming, both players have to co-op to stay afloat. He attacks by spin jumping and whipping enemies with his tails on ground, in the air if he hits enemies with his tails while flying it will also destroy them, and in flight his tails can deflect enemy fire from hitting himself or another player. In some areas, he can spin his tails in place to create a gust of wind which can be used to power wind-activated machines.

    Knuckles: Cannot run as fast as either character but can be steered the easiest. He punches to attack and break down some walls in his way. He can also climb a wall, provided it's not solid steel and can be gripped with his spiked knuckles, and he can burrow underground. Now only can he burrow under some obstacles or jump out to surprise enemies, but if he digs in the right place, he can find secret underground routes inaccessible to other characters. In certain areas, he can wind up a powerful punch to smack old, rusty switches and turn on machines that can help other characters progress and he can swim above water until the player designates that he should dive. When he glides in water, he doesn't descend slowly, but he stays I the same height. Some walls are also too muddy or slippery to climb underwater. He can help other players by tossing them either over large gaps or into enemies they can't hit on their own.

    Amy: This is the odd-character out. She can use different weapons in the game but she can't attack on her own. Her common attack is the hammer which she can also use while running to slam against the ground ad propel herself into the air and charge up to spin attack enemies, but doing this for too long induces temporary dizzyness which immobilizes her for a few seconds. She also uses a crossbow which she can use to take out enemies too far away for other players to attack or that are too dangerous to attack such as orbnauts, or that she can use on ceilings or low hanging branches to grapple across pits by swinging. In designated areas she can even use it to secure a tightrope over ledges or make an arrow tie around a switch that's far away so she can activate it without getting close. This would be useful to activate a bridge you would need to cross but if you don't have a character that can fly over and activate it. Like Sonic, she can't swim but her arrows also take on more drag underwater, making it harder to fire at objects. Her jumping is slowed thanks to her dress though, and she can even jump a little higher underwater.

    I don't really think a game needs more than four playable characters, because then it becomes clustered and risks unbalance.
     
  16. Crappy Blue

    Crappy Blue

    Knuckles' Chaotix is a perfect game with no flaws Member
    So, you're against stats in platformers unless they can't be seen?
     
  17. Quarterman

    Quarterman

    Just another day in paradise. Member
    I must dispute this statement. Differing statistics are a tried and true aspect of platformers. For example, Super Mario 2 had differing styles of play depending on who you played as (Luigi jumped high, Toad was fast, etc.) and I feel that adding stat sheets would simply make the game more accessible to players. It would be simpler to find the character who suits your playing style and perhaps add a bit of depth to the gameplay.
     
  18. Volpino

    Volpino

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    A secret. >:3
    But that's what I don't understand. Why would you need to see the numbers? Why wouldn't you prefer for someone to say "Sonic runs fast and do stuff other characters can't." rather than confuse players with "Sonic: Speed: 100 Flight: 20 Power: 50"? In that Mario game, did they show numbers of what the characters could do?

    It's not that I'm against character diversity in games, it's just that I'm against the traditional definition for stats in a game. The difference is that characters aren't supposed to change in platformers from what their set-in-stone abilities are or what they're supposed to learn in a certain point of the game. The player isn't supposed to have a say in what that character learns. I'm against stats in platformers because they have the potential to over complicate the games.

    However, if you're just talking about seeing a character's stats, at the beginning of the game, without any attempt to introduce those other garden variety mechanics usually accompanying the exact revelation of the numerical figures that determine a character's abilities, and only want to see said figures for the sole purpose of choosing the character you want, why would that be any different than the game simply telling you 'Sonic runs fast, Tails flies and Knuckles punches things" straightforward, no BS explanations of what the characters can do?

    It doesn't mean the characters don't have in-depth sides to them, just that instead of seeing figures that compare and contrast with other characters, you'll see a brief explanation of each character. Ultimately though, this is where the 'opinion' factor comes into play, and if you would rather the compare and contrast to other characters type of character summary, more power to you. But I like the short, sweet and to-the-point brief paragraphs that just tell me what I want to know about what the character can do. I don't personally care if Tails' jump stat is higher than Sonic's because that has no value to me, especially since at the beginning of the game, unless you hung around spoilers on the internet, you shouldn't have any reference to which to compare that to. All I want to know is who can do what. I can't begin to care how well they do it, just that they do it. That's the way I'm looking at the stats now, they give unnecessary details in my eyes.
     
  19. Quarterman

    Quarterman

    Just another day in paradise. Member
    I understand what you are saying. I do agree that simplification would be preferred, but there are people who like to see numerical statistics. Perhaps if one were to have the simplified explanations on the screen with the option of seeing the more complex statistics (by pushing the select button, perhaps), they would create a happy medium? I think that would work rather well, actually.
     
  20. Volpino

    Volpino

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    I agree with that, actually. I think the explanation of what the characters can do as well as seeing what kinds of stats they have would give one a fair idea of the characters.

    Though I think they would be better measured in pictorial formats than numerical ones, such as stars or grades like on Sonic Adventure 1/2? Just a thought.
     
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