It most definitely isn't the same In fact, it's diametrically opposite. The boost isn't context-sensitive. You'll always reach a set max speed with the boost towards the direction you want, regardless of the level geometry, as long as the gauge isn't empty. Sonic's core movement is entirely context-sensitive: holding right up a hill only works if you have enough speed, which you'll only attain if you've maintained speed the few seconds before that. Pressing down to reach the speed cap only works downhill. It's entirely dependent on the level geometry. You're just really not noticing the air you breathe because it's all around you. Which are? Because I mean, if motion play through physics isn't integral, what is? Is it though? Because, in my experience, these flashy sections aren't separate from the whole context of a stage: the way I'll approach them depends on how confident I am that I won't just die at the next moment, where I was beforehand and what the stage is offering outside the path I'm on. Items on top of loops are the most obvious examples of how flashy sections are rarely just that: I won't always stop myself after a loop just to get on top of it. But if the item above is a shield and I have no rings, you bet your ass I will. It's never a given because the game won't separate sections like that, as if they were rooms in a Megaman game. This is why I can't call them set pieces. I make them so after I know the stage or have enough confidence in my own skill that I know I can deal with whatever the stage throws at me. Mileages vary a lot. So your hypothesis is that Sonic's motion play isn't integral to the gameplay but that these sections are meant for spectacle. But here your premise is that these sections' whole point is the flashy spectacle. Looks like circular logic to me, to which I can always say "no, these aren't meant for flashy spectacle -- it's the flashy spectacle that is the byproduct of motion play". Also, and this is very important: the distinction between consequential and intentional you're making is rather arbitrary. By essence and definition, emergent play can't be designed -- or it ceases to become so. Still, a game can, and Sonic most definitely does, lend itself to emergent play purposefully. Letting a player navigate a level through intelligent interaction with the geometry is very much the point, even if in micro scales. Once again you're using your hypothesis as your argument, as if it was innately true. Which it isn't -- you're calling counter-examples "clichéd, merely consequential byproducts of the core design", but both @kazz and I believe you can't downplay the importance of actively engaging with the game's movement features as anything other than core to their design, even if you "get punished". Which is, by the way, the reason why the ring system exists -- or, at least, the reason why it works. Thank fucking God they don't! I suppose my general point is: yes, you probably can finish a classic Sonic game without even so much as rolling, or interacting with the stage geometries in any meaningful way, or doing anything flashy at all with the physics. The games will just be incredibly harder for it. Learning how to use Sonic's movement not only let you clear the game's challenges more easily, but they also make the game easier by virtue of skipping whole sections/keeping your momentum and allwing you to reach threats more easily etc. Not any particular tricks will ever be required and, thanks to the ring system, you can clear the game however you want. Thankfully, because either way, you'll get more skilled and eventually reach the end of the stage. This isn't romantic at all. Sonic is just a platformer. In fact, pretending it's anything but that is what feels ridiculous to me.
Okay but this context is arbitrary and can even be argued to be a design bottle neck when the end result is what i described. One could if they wanted, argue boost sections are actually less automated because there is active gameplay during them by comparison. All this is getting away from my core point though. The argument you are making is epistemologically rooted in taking the way the automation is done for granted as good over another, which to me is questionable. Yes the automation is contextual in 2D Classic Sonic. It's also contextual in 3D games. It's just done differently and I'd argue feels less good to play. But that's, again, a different argument than saying physics manipulation is some core aspect of the game design. When I think of physics manipulation games, I think of stuff like the ball puzzle in 06 no one likes or thinking with portals in..well portal. You aren't actually applying physics in any deep or interesting ways in the classics as an actual core part of the gameplay. You can, but it's very inaccurate to claim doing so is a core aspect of the game if you ask me. ..why are we shifting terminology now? ...All I said in that post was that what you described I think is more a consequence of whether or not the player has level layout knowledge because physics manipulation has really nothing to do with whether or not pressing down to roll on the hill to fly through a speed section results in you dying or not. EDIT: For the record, my fave game in the series is Sonic 3&K. My first was Sonic 2.
3&K is my favorite too. I especially love that required physics trick in Lava Reef Act 2 where you have to hit a spring then jump out of a ceiling run onto a small moving platform.
I'd say the argument is rooted in not taking as automation at all what you describe as automation. To be perfectly specific: the occasion of me just letting the game take me to wherever it seemed to want me to go was never as prevalent as you're making it seem.¹ It could just be that I'm more neurotic, or just that I'm simply worse at the games so I'm always more worried. That said, how is context arbitrary? It's all that will ever inform any given player's ability to make a decision under the circumstances, and not even that is entirely on the game's hands. It's only arbitrary insofar as it depends on the player's perception. By the way, a lot of Sonic's speed sections are contextual in 3D games too. I never said they weren't or couldn't be. It must be said that generally Sonic has far more rings, but the outcomes are at least a bit more binary (what with loads of bottomless pits under homing attack chains or rails, etc), but this has nothing to do with the boost as an ability, which isn't context-sensitive, and which you brought up. ¹ Actually, Sonic Mania did that a lot. I always bring up Studiopolis Act 2 and Titanic Monarch as examples of stages that work a lot like what you're describing. There's a lot of spectacle, lot of sections that I basically can't stop, and not much physics to play with. It's possible that the Mania Team studied the previous games and came to the same conclusion as you. I guess my point here would be right, but you're always applying physics in surface and uninteresting ways in the classics, which on the whole makes it deep (and interesting). Which is why it's a core aspect to me. It's everywhere, and you'll basically always be playing with it. I always use this term because it's how Deef would describe Sonic's core gameplay "without clear A-to-B objectives, collectibles or life system balance" many years ago. He was very adamant on getting to an ontology of Sonic's gameplay, which is what I think we're kind of getting at here. Of course, this basically means "the way Sonic can move around a stage for no particular reason, using physics or not". It's the best term I know that doesn't have much of a built-in value judgement. Yes, it is a consequence of level layout knowledge, and also having good reflexes as a skill, and sometimes having a sense of rhythm or not, and maybe how much of your time is spent airborne (in which your reactions are limited). The point though was that whenever Sonic games would make a section more automated, it would lead you to a less favorable position. Which is just a level design issue more than anything: in order to avoid the less favorable positions, you'd have to break the sequences, or skip them somehow. So it isn't that automation² doesn't exist at all in classic games. Just feels like they're a) a minority b) not necessarily the best ption, and you will notice it. ² Read: sections in which you're better off pressing right and generally not interacting
Oh, so it wasn't just me! That's a feeling I often had while playing the game, and one of the reasons I don't like it as much.
That's my point. It's a platformer with cool movement and if you want to dig deeper, you can. The game doesn't require it but you can do a lot of cool stuff regardless if it progresses the game or not. This is one of my favorite videos and it's just a dude zooming around. My romantic comment is aimed towards the people that glorify the physics system and trying to make going to a higher tier path as something more than it actually is.
(This conversation sort of moved in a different direction, but hopefully this is still a worthwhile post.) To me, classic Sonic has no clear divide between "smooth continuous movement" and "tools for physics manipulation". Some level elements are one or the other, but a lot of them feel like a mix of both. Besides, how can you move smoothly in a game with character physics without manipulating those physics in some way? There are some more restrictive setpieces that mostly exist for pure spectacle, but I don't feel those represent the majority of one's interactions with the physics in a classic game. Here's a video I just recorded, showing one of my favorite examples of a "setpiece" that can be interacted with in two very different ways, depending on how you apply the physics resources (speed shoes, slopes) at your disposal. (And yes, I forgot to record the audio.) I also found this tool-assisted speedrun that gets to the top of the loop another way (skip to 1:23): I feel like this is emblematic of what it feels like to play a classic game on a moment-to-moment basis, more than any gimmick that appears a handful of times in a level. And yes, you need level design foresight to pull off this specific trick, but across a full game I feel you're bound to do a couple cool things like this on accident, even on your first playthrough. (Assuming good level design that facilitates such opportunities, of course.) At the very least, playing the game should give you a sense that tricks like this are possible, which is hopefully enough to get a player interested. And far simpler little movement optimizations (like jumping through loops) can be fun too. With that said, the process of trying to use the physics to your advantage, to reach secrets or shortcuts (that may or may not even be there!) will result in a bit of stopping and starting, falling off platforms, etc. It took many rerecords for me to get the second part right- you have to slow down just enough to hit the invincibility after bouncing off the 1-up monitor, and the backwards jump to the shield is fiddly, too. But I don't view that as "punishment", really. The game gives me plenty of opportunities to experiment, so it's not really the game's fault if the result of that experimentation isn't always rewarding. And a lot of the time it is intrinsically rewarding, at least for me. Just because something isn't necessary to "progress" or complete the game doesn't mean that something isn't a core, intentional part of the game. To continue the Mario comparison, there are (probably?) many levels in Mario 3 that can be beaten without jumping on enemies. But jumping on enemies is clearly a core part of Mario gameplay. In fact, you'd have to go out of your way to avoid it, and I feel you'd have to go out of your way to avoid doing (minor) physics tricks in classic Sonic as well. There are enough elements to the level design across the Genesis games to make me feel like that sort of explorative, trial-and-error-using-the-physics playstyle is intended and encouraged.
You've just said everything I'd like to have said, but much more eloquently and also with much better points. And the video you recorded showcases a ton of very beautiful things abut Sonic gameplay, including revenge-killing a badnik that just hit you, simply out of spite. You didn't have to, you didn't gain much out of it, but the piranha deserved it. One very important thing to me is that level design foresight might be important, but not really as important as the player's self-perception and what they understand is their primary objective at any given time. What gives you the idea that such tricks are possible is not the physics in itself, even if the exploration is rewarding. Physics manipulation, momentum-gathering etc. aren't self-fulfilling. The 1-Up and bunch of rings on top of that loop are nice, and they'll give you an idea that, if they're there, it's possible to reach them. But how? And, perhaps more importantly, why? How each player understands and prioritizes what they want to do vs. what they need to do vs. what they know how to do will determine what form that exploration takes. A player that is desperate for rings and lives is more likely to try to find a way to the top of that loop, although less likely to know how to get there, even if it's the first time they're seeing it. Some players may never see it because they actively chose to use the speed shoes to use the bottom route. Some other player may decide they need to learn how to control Sonic's movement, there and then, to get the moving platform to reach the path they just missed, instead of letting themselves be dragged backwards (where you'll eventually find the speed shoes). These micro choices we're constantly doing because we're constantly shown what we're missing are, I think, crucial, and what drives us to better understand and enjoy the games -- more than the flashy sections.
I've played the game more times than I can count and don't remember this but I wouldn't even call that a "physics trick". It's a timing challenge. You aren't manipulating any momentum or physics to do that. The spring did it all for you. ...Even if you believe this, that wasn't ever what I said though. I said Its most of it's application and that when it occurs, it is still automation and that's okay. I know I made a dig about being edgy in my first post but I didn't expect to legitimately trigger a wasp nest making the statement in an controversial opinions thread. Your post has been a list of extrapolated accusations very removed from my original statement stacked on top of eachother so I get the sense this REALLY upset you which I assure you I wasn't my actual intent. It's arbitrary because it isn't relevant to my actual statement. Also I disagree on the latter. I would say overcoming obstacles and hazards and would constitute that. Again, this to me comes off similar to people that exemplify Melee a deep game due to having more exploit potential. Sure, you can say that, but we aren't really talking about that. My whole post was about the design and intent of the mechanics and the core gameplay rather than extrapolated fancy (and cool) stuff you can do as a consequence of them if you wanna exercise em at their limit in ways the devs frankly likely didn't even intend. Their own statements on the matter in interviews make it pretty apparent. ....So it's what Sonic's core gameplay is if you remove literally everything else? Things that are, quite frankly extremely important? While a neat thought experiment, I find this very flawed. Okay, even if i were to agree on this...it again has little to do with what I am saying because the actual process of this is very divorced from any actual deep interaction with momentum or physics. It's just reflex/timing challenges when coming out of a speed section.
This, this... In the past I've been eaten alive when I said that I'm not a fan of Mania and its level design... this is exactly the reason, I agree so much. Overall, Mania is ok, though I can't stand to how sometimes you enter a chain of gimmicks (occasionally by surprise, like with an hidden spring coming out from nowhere) that will send you elsewhere even preventing you from backtracking... sometimes I "soft-rage-quit" (if it even makes sense) and just watch the game play itself. Actually, "automation" is not my only problem with Mania's level design, there are a couple more things, but I prefer to stop here. The game is huge and not every level is like this, the quality of the package is pretty high regardless, though I find other games to be more enjoyable to play and especially replay multiple times. I guess it counts as my first unpopular opinion on this thread, I hope people won't get too upset at me for saying this. Overall I agree on how physics manipulation is part of the core gameplay and identity of Sonic, and with all the discussion about automation not being really automation when the player feels and is still in control of the character. People may have idolized it over the years, but in fact, that's what makes Sonic unique. In Green Hill (Sonic 1), even when you do a simple jump you have to think about the physics, because the terrain is not completely flat, and depending on your speed and the angle of the platform, your jump can have different behaviors; the advanced tricks are the result of a player mastering said physics system, but even at low skills the physics are still taken into account while playing. Then there are places like the water slides of Hydrocity Act 2, where you can interact but the game will punish you for trying, and it's really just better to watch Sonic run automatically... though it's only a small part of the game, luckily. I think that the misconception comes from the fact that they are often called "rolling physics", as if rolling is the only thing that matters. There are several other factors that make the physics system in Sonic games interesting, and they are indeed important for the gameplay. Like the way how you gain speed downhill and lose speed uphill... ironically, Amy in Advance 1 can't roll nor spindash, so you are forced to focus more on the slopes to gain speed (when there isn't a speed booster near)... the lack of a rolling move makes the "rolling physics" play a bigger role in the gameplay. Even Sonic 4 ep 1 with its almost completely absent rolling and momentum, still let you play with the physics by exploiting the terrain angles to jump into the most impossible places. You can do a Sonic game with a simpler physics system, but the more you remove, the least interesting it becomes (a generic platformer but faster).
All physics tricks in Sonic are a matter of timing. Would rolling down a slope be "doing it for me" as well?
You keep bringing up Melee's wavedashing as a point of comparison, but that's so dissimilar to anything else we can do in the 2D Sonic games. I can see where you're coming from to an extent, insofar as both Melee's wavedashing and the kinds of things you can do with Sonic's physics aren't requirements for playing or finishing the game, but rolling isn't really required to play or beat Sonic 1 either. I could beat Sonic 1 (Labyrinth Zone boss aside) as a child despite my not seeing any use for rolling until I was a teenager. But everything we know about Sonic 1's development process indicates that it absolutely was part of the 'core' of Sonic's mechanics. Regardless, Melee's wavedashing is such an esoteric trick, one that is incredibly taxing to perform and is not at all kind to the controller you're performing it with. Things like jumping while going fast at the top of a slope to do a big jump are way more simple in comparison. Same with rolling up a quarter pipe into the sky and landing on a buzz bomber. The notion that the devs just kind of oopsie'd into it is odd. We know Ohshima conceived of Twin Star as having sloping terrain, complete with loops; we know that Naka wanted to make a "game to challenge Mario", which was a Momentum-Based Platformer™; and we know that some of the earliest playable versions of Sonic featured a ball rolling on some sloped terrain. "Ball momentum on sloping terrain" leads pretty naturally to the kinds of little optional tricks you can do in the original 2D Sonic games, and the amount of times the level design facilitates this stuff makes it really hard for me to believe that the level designers just weren't aware of what they were doing; some instances are likely serendipitous, but all, or even most? I don't really buy it. Arguing that the tricks aren't themselves the 'core' of Sonic's mechanics is fine, but they're definitely natural byproducts of things which are (while things like the Ring system were apparently added later than this stuff). Sure, wavedashing as a trick is also a natural byproduct of Melee's own movement system, but that movement system isn't integral to the concept of a "platform-fighter". You could do these tricks in the very first Sonic game, but you couldn't wavedash in the very first Smash game (as far as I'm aware). Another dissimilarity is that Sakurai deliberately altered the movement mechanics so as to make the trick impossible in subsequent games, in a way that Naka and friends certainly didn't between Sonic 1 and 2. Or between Sonic 2 and 3. CD didn't drop it either. As far as I'm aware, SNK/Dimps games like Pocket Adventure and Advance actively recreated it. It even stuck around in the Adventure games to an extent. While we could maybe say that 2 and 3 kept all of these quirks that naturally occur as a result of the physics because they were just using the same engine, it's not clear why Dimps or Sonic Team (in 1997/8) would aim to recreate so much of it if it was as incidental as you seem to be arguing here. Something more comparably esoteric in the 2D Sonic games might be something like jumping in a loop to gain more speed, but I still feel like that's not as inside-baseball as wavedashing. Something as difficult to execute in the 2D Sonic games might be something like causing the game to bug out so you can teleport to a later point in the level while the camera plays catch up, but that's still not exactly the same. Honestly, I just don't think there's anything quite like wavedashing in the 2D Sonic games, so it just feels really strange to see it brought up as a point of comparison. Edit: I hope I'm not "overstating" or "romanticizing" anything here, or making this stuff out to be more than it is; I'm simply trying to describe shit as it is.
I'm not taking it personally, though it is an opinion that is very different from everything I believe about Sonic. It does upset me in the sense that, if what I believe makes up the core of Sonic's game loop and makes it interesting isn't its core, then what is? I don't mean to make accusations, either. I'm trying to poke at your point to see what positive assessments I can engage with. The problem is, you've kind of refused to give them. There's a lot you're not talking about, apparently, but I still can't see what you are talking about. ...But what you'll see as a threat or as an obstacle, or how much it will influence you, is context too. This really is important to your statement because you're saying interacting meaningfully and purposefully with the game's physics isn't integral to Sonic's gameplay right? But that is because you'll consider "meaningful and purposeful" is the most advanced tricks, as it's a given, not a choice, that you'll roll down slopes whenever you're given a chance, and the ddevs expect yu to do it. As such, it's automation, because no amount of "context" could interfere with this process. So far I believe I'm just following your argument. Is that right? Which interviews and statements? Besides, I'm arguing the very opposite: that toying with Sonic's motion play is so pervasive in the game that most basic or boring things you do depend on it, not the exploits. Exploits are the endgame, but they aren't like a separate from of play. That was his thinking, anyway. I don't consider motion play alone to be Sonic's core -- I argued as much in that very thread, more than ten years ago -- but that's the term he used to define "things you can do with Sonic's moveset and physics", and I like the term. But all these challenges are intrinsically dependent on the game's physics, and what you can, or, sometimes more importantly, can't do with them. It's not deep. It's not just for spectacle either though.
Saying you think the games' physics aren't important is an opinion, and fits into the thread. Saying the developers didn't intend for the game to utilise them is not an opinion, it's an assertion. One that doesn't align with reality. The physics tricks are 100% intended by the devs. Yasuhara did play the games as he designed them, you know? He didn't just slap some drawings on graph paper in a day and hand it over to Naka et al. The game is carefully designed. Here are some that occur to me off the top of my head. Green Hill Act 2 - You need to jump backwards off the slope at high speed in order to reach the monitor on top of the loop. Green Hill Act 3 - You need to jump off the terrain at the end in a specific way to get the invincibility in the tree. Spring Yard Act 3(?) - You have to jump off the slope in the half pipe in order to get into the secret area at the top right. Chemical Plant Act 2 - I'd argue that the trap skip was intentional, but even if it wasn't, the secret pathway prior to it has an entrance that requires high speed and jumping off a hill at a particular angle. The hill was clearly put in for that purpose as well. Hill Top Zone Act 2 - In the section with the loop into a breakable floor into another loop, you have to let the speed of the loop carry you back up the initial loop in order to have enough speed at the end to reach the monitor at the top.
There's a red spring pointing upwards that lets you get to that monitor, though this requires taking the bottom route.
Oh yeah, you’re right. I never take the path down there. It actually wasn’t one of the original examples I considered. I turned Sonic 1 on to check some levels quickly and when I came across it, I remembered ShayMay or some other YouTuber using it as an example and figured I’d throw it in. Either way, I think the point stands. Even when we’re talking about Melee and the mechanics there that the community love, it’s not like Sakurai didn’t catch those either. He has mentioned finding a bunch of popular tech in play-testing but just assumed it wouldn’t be used (huge mistake for a fighting game dev lol). The difference there is that the Melee never asks for that, while Sonic clearly has instances where the design calls for this more advanced movement. Never to complete the level, but in intended shortcuts and items/hidden areas.
I don't think having to charge to light speed dash is in itself the worst thing in the world. Like, yeah. If I'm trying to run through a level, maintain momentum, and then for some arbitrary reason I need to all of a sudden stop and charge up this thing that takes no thought or skill or anything at all just to continue forward, that's a no-go. That's why I view the light speed attack as a freaking stupid mechanic. But when it comes to using the light speed dash to access ALTERNATE paths... Well... Having to stop and charge it to access alternate paths makes the decision to check out those alternate paths feel more deliberate, significant, and weighted. It also causes there to be more of a period of build up of anticipation of what’s waiting for you on the alternate path, which ind of reminds me of the feeling generated by hunting for SUPER high up secrets as Knuckles and Tails in 3K. (That's a good thing) Also, if you noticed the alternate path (as in, using camera control to look around for it. Not it just being right there in front of your face like a fork in the road, as some 3D Sonic games like Heroes and Shadow are guilty of at times) that means you already stopped and broke the pace of the level yourself. So nothing is really being sacrificed there, in my opinion. In fact... I think I kind of would prefer if the light speed dash was treated like this. I don't think the light speed dash as is is all that great of a mechanic. Like it feels good to use, and it can contribute to a levels sense of "rhythm" as you chain into it from other actions. But ultimately, I don't think it really adds that much to the game. It's just an alternate, videogamey, and obvious way to have Sonic follow a single, scripted path to something that is already in view in most cases, and in some other cases leads to just continuing down the path you were already on. And there's no real thought process to it or depth it adds to the game. It's just, "Here's a ring trail. Light dash through it." "...Okay? Sure." At least the other way comes into play, at least the other way is involved when you're actively paying attention to the level for opportunities to use it to explore and investigate secrets and stuff. So there is SOMETHING there, even if not caused by the actual process of using the mechanic itself when you've found an opportunity to.
I think that the Light Speed Dash is an uninteresting mechanic in general, whatever use it's meant for, chargeable or not. At the end of the day is't just another homing attack that requires a bit more precision to be activated. I can tolerate it more when it's used as a speedrun tool, but still don't like it much. In Frontiers it's there to damage my Switch's analog stick until it will finally drift. Wherever the Light Speed Dash is required, it would be better if there was just a contextualized stage gimmick instead. A line of rings on the street of an highway level? Just put a rocket car that Sonic can ride for a speed boost instead. I did appreciate how creative they were when this skill was turned into a move in Sonic Battle though.
Yeah... The Light Speed Dash really isn't a mechanic to write home about. At it's absolute best, it's a way to keep the momentum going and align Sonic with the path. That's how 06 predominantly used it in the mach speed sections, and it was relatively solid in concept. You've just got to look passed the fact that basically every single mechanic in 06 was janky and/or broken, with the light speed dash in mach sections regularly hurtling Sonic into walls and obstacles. In every other instance, it's just a "press button to go here" ability, like a homing attack for rings. It adds next to nothing to the games, except visually messy trails of rings that serve no purpose other than to promo the player to press a button and watch the game play itself for a little while. For real. Why isn't this one of his moves in Smash Bros?
