Unpopular Sonic Opinions

I literally just wish the 3DS game did the same as the Wii U version with regards to the parkour. Whatever verbose explanation I could give you is clearly inferior if you have any perception as to how the HD game uses the mechanic differently, which was fine. I dunno what to tell you.

 

Not use it?

 

In the same way that Sonic 2 and 3 don't use the spindash, yes.

 

Sonic 3 has obstacles and gimmicks that require the spin dash.

 

It isn't really fair to compare the spindash to a whole new and separate movement system. It's easy to use level design as a holy grail that could accommodate all abilities while only absolutely requiring a few, and I've done that a lot of times to criticize -- say -- homing attack chains in 2D games, but maybe that's not the point at all.

 

I really need to grab a copy for the 3DS because I've seen people praising and hating on the parkour in comparison to the Wii U, and I really want to experience it for myself. I forgot the parkour existed most of the time during the Wii U version and disliked how it was handled when it was needed. I've heard the 3DS uses it more but it feels better, so who knows? I just have to try it out.

 

And in the same way, the HD version of Lost World very occasionally asks that you use parkour.

 

There's been rom hacks and versions of s3 complete that outright take away the spindash (s1 sonic in s3) that goes to show how integral the spindash is in the design philosophy of those games. I highly recommend playing it.

 

The 3DS version has much the same general implementation of parkour as the Wii U version, with just a couple of very noticeable tweaks. Sonic is generally faster running up walls on 3DS and can go further distances without losing speed and height, which makes it much more forgiving and more enjoyable to get into the flow of it . You still don't have full directional control during parkour, but those differences do make it feel better. Plus the level design regularly calls for it on the 3DS, whilst on the Wii U it's usually a tacked-on afterthought.

But yeah the 3DS version is still the hottest shit. Don't waste your time.

 

And certain parts of Lost World would be impossible to complete without the parkour mechanic! See how this works?

 

I don't know about them, but I don't. For the last page you've been avoidant, yet persistently replying to the matter at hand, going all Classic Crisis City about it. You commended the 3DS version for presenting and iterating on its core mechanic better than its HD counterpart, yet you'd have it simply not do that so that the same core mechanic isn't necessary at all -- like S3, which didn't actually do it like you said? Is there a point here, even?

 

The strength of the 3DS version is that it doesn't distract from the regular stages by making Sonic turn into a snowball or float through the air, which makes it more focused on the central mechanics. It does use the parkour more than the Wii U game, but my point is that it also uses it badly, turning what should be one tool in Sonic's moveset into the key for a series of gauntlets for which there is no alternative -- which is worse than what the HD version does, which lets it help out in a lot of instances while rarely actively requiring anything too complicated from it, the same way Sonic 2 and 3 have the spindash without base entire giant levels around rigorous dexterity with the mechanic. I am giving the 3DS version credit in that it has more focused design, but criticizing that what that design asks of the player is fucking miserable.

I'm trying to say "there is a middle ground between actively demanding mastery of a tool under punishment of death", not "the tool should serve absolutely no purpose whatsoever". The HD version hits that middle ground perfectly okay, it just doesn't have the stage count to feel that way because Sonic is busy running down a giant tree or grinding through giant undersea passages. These things would feel like interesting highlights in a game with lots of normal stages, but they crowd out the ones in Lost World HD such that the 3DS version is strengthened by having lots of normal stages -- they just happen to be marathon deathtraps, so it sucks. Hence my statement that, absent all the bullshit, the 3DS and Wii U stages coexisting in one version of the game would be the best.

 

Fair, I appreciate you describing your line of thought more thoroughly. Thanks.

I've been considering your post a lot, but ultimately I have to wonder if "recreating the 3D boost in 2D" isn't in some way a successor to the Rush formula. Not only because Sonic Vs Darkness mostly works anyway, but also because Sonic Colors (Wii) has some stages that are completely 2D. I'm not sure these stages ever even go to the 2.5D perspective. Aquarium Park Act.... 3? I guess? Is the one example that comes up, but there should be others. They're more focused on platorming than anything, granted, and the Wisps make it a lot safer to work with since the boost ends up not being the focus.

(The more I look at Sonic Colors, especially its 2D sections, the stiffer it feels, but) nevertheless the camera work, zooming in or out very liberally and basically dividing the stage in rooms or discrete challenges, works fine. Which I guess is what Sonic Vs Darkness does best. I suppose that's an approach to level design that could work. Sonic Rush already divides platforming/combat and boost zones very strongly, but admitting that through the camera and level design could maybe make it so that you don't really need to make them that distinct.

 

I’m glad my single sentence shower thought sparked an interesting discussion on lost world. I’ve always felt the game is severely under appreciated for mostly unfair criticism. For the longest time it’s felt like I’ve had to say “I like the game, but….” When in reality I just love the whole package, 3DS game and all. People want different things from sonic and it scratched that itch for me. I don’t care that it “rips off Mario,” or is full of tropes. Compared to what we’ve had since it feels like a breath of fresh air. I genuinely believe the game would be less hated if it wasn’t the follow up to generations.

 

Agreed, for the most part. I liked the gameplay and visuals, even if they are a bit too corporate and safe, but the story was something I skipped for the first time ever. I ended up doing the same with Colors when I first played that. For all the crap we give Forces, I at least paid attention (even if it was in the vain hope that I’d improve).

If Generations hadn’t put us in the mindset of, “OMG, imagine if they made this but with original levels!!!” Lost World would have gotten a much better reception. Not a perfect one, considering the Galaxy comparisons would still exist, but definitely not the knee jerk hatred or outright dismissal that seems to dominate the discourse.

I got to play it early at NY Comic Con but I can’t recall what I thought of it. I remember waiting a long ass time in line, then playing at least the level where you run down the hive (second stage of second world, I think?). Either way, I still got the game upon release and had fun playing it through 100%.

 

I dunno if I'd go that far. Lost World had accessibility issues from the start. Being on the Wii U made it the worst-selling mainline Sonic platformer (I think?) which already puts it up against, say, the wall of Unleashed defenders we see now, even after it got the PC port. But it was also full of weird experiments that won't necessarily resonate with every player. The snowball level, the floating stages, the grind levels, and the less said about the extra world, the better.

While it works just fine, the main gameplay is pretty esoteric from the first go unless you're willing to do some experimentation. Sonic's weird compound homing attack where it's not clear exactly what charges it (and the classic imperfection of the targeting in general), the kick which is basically just another homing attack, how the spindash can basically be the boost but only if you hold it in a certain way, the pointless slow ground-rolling (which I guess is for sticky floors and nothing else?), the bounce attack being in the game but only for 3 bounces...it's all not totally clear what this stuff is for. I remember when Johnny's review came out and he mentioned having no idea that you can hop left and right from a head-on wall run, and that's something that is tutorialized in the 3DS game.

The point is, it's not solely Lost World's difference to other Sonic games that makes it polarizing. It is just a very very weird game and what it tries is less likely to work for people who aren't already on board with some of those ideas.

 

I don’t think the way you you enter special stages in 3K and Mania is a straight improvement over what came before. In fact, I think they messed up a little bit.

Like, providing slightly more compelling reason to check out other routes and investigate secrets and explore and stuff is good. But removing the ring requirement?

I said earlier I view the "50-rings-to-enter-a-special-stage" thing as a crutch, a band-aid solution. And to be honest? I stand by that. Instead of fixing the problem of damage having little consequence due to rings, it creates a workaround that

1) Might not even work depending on if a player cares about getting the emeralds or depending on if they even know they're in the game and their purpose

2) Makes a previous problem that the ring system was a workaround for a problem once more: trying to go fast or even the default speed you run at when simply holding right easily leading to cheap shots. Man, they're even cheap shots I can point to off the top of my head that have nothing to do with the speed you're traveling at, but just level design.

However…

Though I view it as a crutch rather than an actual solution, if we’re going to have something like the ring system, I view it as a kind of necessary one.

Well, sort of. The solution to the first stated issue doesn’t HAVE to be tying getting the emeralds to not taking damage. There are like limitless solutions, ones even already tried by this series.

In SA2, you want to hold onto rings so as to get bonuses at checkpoints that are helpful either in themselves or in getting a higher rank.

Heroes tied getting into special stages to holding on to a key which involved not taking damage or dying.

I haven’t played much of 06, but from what I hear, how many rings you have at the end of a stage is a serious factor in your rank.

Now in Mania, we have a cool bonus. Yeah, there’s the fact that I imagine most people don’t even really know what that is. There is also the problem of, even if you know what that is, who freaking cares about getting high scores these days? Even less incentive to do so when it’s not tied to a set objective like getting a good ranking....

...But the fact that it acknowledges what a player has done at all in the first place, which is not take damage, is a good thing.

And of course, trying to not take damage is not the only possible source of tension in these games.

An enjoyable one is trying to not mess up somewhere in a run through a level so as to not kill your speedrun attempt, which also indirectly calls you to not take damage...

Though again. How many people actually care about that? Like, I recently came to see how freaking fun it is even in games I didn’t think it would be fun in, but that’s after so many, MANY years of just not caring in those games.

 

The thing about classic Sonic is not that anyone harbors any particular hatred for him on his own (barring twitter arguments about minor design details), just that the marketing was so transparent.

Mania is liked because it worked it's balls off to be a good game, and people got upset with Forces because it had very superficial classic elements to chase the popularity of Generations, instead of recreating the solid level design that made Generations popular (not that they likely had a ton to work with, disaster production and all, but still).

Also because having a second vestigial Sonic is seen as taking up space that could go to other playable characters who actually have personalities. If all the classic stages in Forces went to Tails or something (even if he played the same, however little sense that would make) people might even have liked them.

 

Honestly not too hot on the spin dash being added to Frontiers. I'm not against it but at the same time I don't really get why it's being added outside of just appeasing the fans asking for it. The boost pretty much covers whatever the spin dash would be needed for, and its especially bad with Frontiers since the boost is effectively infinite, there's no actual down time that would force the player to rely on the spin dash to go fast.

I'm assuming it ties into people wanting more focus on physics based gameplay but I really doubt that's going to come with the spin dash update (if ever). It'll be cool for the physics mods at least.