don't click here

Unpopular Sonic Opinions

Discussion in 'General Sonic Discussion' started by Londinium, Jun 17, 2022.

  1. That's honestly a really good example. It's negated entirely by the spindash's existence which has been put in almost every version of the game most would reasonably play today, and even without the spindash the timing window is still very generous...

    ...but it's a good example. I never considered that at all. I think we could use more stuff like that.

    I am perfectly fine with these "momentum-based abilities'' taking less precision.

    (Looking back, I used the wrong word here. But I am pretty sure the word I used was used elsewhere interchangeably, so I am keeping it. However, momentum-based abilities sounds like a very imprecise and vague term. So I'm going to give it a definition and you tell me if this sounds good: Abilities that grant momentum, help maintain momentum, and/or require a degree of momentum to use)

    But anyways, back to what I was saying, that doesn't really need to change. But just know that because they take less precision, I am going to view them as less interesting. Whether they are as "apples and oranges" or not.

    And therefore, if I have to choose between someone learning these platforming based abilities or this rolling stuff, I think that the former is probably going to be more beneficial to their enjoyment of the game, even if rolling might make things feel a bit more manageable due to all it's utilities mentioned earlier.

    Indeed. I know. So I don't view this stuff as something that takes away from the game. I even view it as kind of a "necessary" mechanic, even if not generally a particular interesting one to use, exactly because of what it allows for. (Stuff I actually find interesting)

    But as I said in a thread a long time ago that I honestly don't want to bring up again, there are other ways to gain momentum in these games that I find a bit more interesting.

    Jumping also does this. And in the reality of both cases, performing this requires that the player already know what's down below them before they roll off or jump off the ledge. This is because of what the camera is generally showing in such sections.

    From how I worded that, you can probably guess that I have an issue with this and also guess what that issue is, but that's a whole 'nother subject.

    I can agree with this. It at times helps everything feel like it's being chained together in one continuous sequence of action. Still don't think this action in that chain is the most interesting among them, but it's not an offensive mechanic. Has it's place in the ideal flow of playing these games well.

    Well, the concept in itself doesn't do anything for me, but yeah.

    Also, the Mario bros slide thing is much shorter range, which means you actually do need to be careful about timing that a bit more. Window is smaller because you need to get closer to use it.

    But whatever.
     
    Last edited: May 22, 2023
  2. Antheraea

    Antheraea

    Bug Hunter Member
    totally unrelated to the above but after watching speedruns of Sonic Chaos and Sonic Blast, I straight up don't see the appeal of these games at all. They both seem sluggish but Blast is both sluggish and looks and plays like some shitty romhack......yall wanted these in Origins?? why?
     
  3. Sonic Chaos, yes. Sonic Blast? Not so much. :V
     
  4. ELS

    ELS

    Member
    233
    64
    28
    Completion's sake. Same reason I'd want the Genesis roms and CD ISO as options.
     
  5. kazz

    kazz

    16-bait Member
    414
    196
    43
    Sonic Chaos is a bit barren but it's probably the only vanilla classic Sonic game I can reasonably see the average 2023 kid beating in one go lol or at least being able to come close. And IDK, I'm a 2000s kid and I've always been charmed by the 8-bit titles, even the crappy ones. I think kid Sonic fans usually just kinda like being able to play as these characters and getting to experience a more obscure title they haven't had easy access to, regardless of the quality of the physics or whatever. Also since Triple Trouble is good but short I think Chaos serves as a good 'part 1' of sorts, like 3&k.

    It's got a sleek, elegant artstyle too. Sonic 1/2 MS are good 8-bit replications of the Genesis aesthetics but IMO Chaos and Triple Trouble straight up compete with them, embracing the limitations pretty perfectly and doing something unique. Gigapolis' colors just soothe my soul.
     
    Last edited: May 23, 2023
  6. Zephyr

    Zephyr

    Member
    3,466
    431
    63
    US
    I agree to an extent. But as I believe Palas pointed out several pages ago, you have to come to a complete stop in order to use the spin dash, so it's not quite as useful as an "oh shit" move in a pinch.

    Jumping off is not always going to be the more flow-preserving option of the two. And sometimes the visibility is just fine.

    I've been wanting to make videos showing off cool shit in Sonic games for a while, and this conversation motivated me to finally do so. So here's a handful of clips of some gameplay I just recorded on my Switch that might help show what I mean.


    Tying into the theme of the thread itself, this also shows why Marble Zone is one of my favorite levels, and why Sonic 1 is one of my favorite games, both being overhated and underrated. "Blocky" as Marble is, it's still got tons of level design that cater specifically to Sonic's ability to roll.
     
    • Like Like x 3
    • Agree Agree x 1
    • List
  7. Wow. That would be the second time iyou've shown me (really just reminded me) of something about playing these games that I just completely forgot about.

    Just being honest. That pretty much never happens.

    Mainly have in mind the clip around 0:13 which actually shows a situation where you wouldn't or rather can't jump to go into a badnik bounce.

    Also, when I said that about the camera, I had in mind far more extreme cases where you drop significantly farther down in order to perform that bounce.

    I already am aware of how rolling can serve as just another thing you do in the flow of playing well. Though I am not sure all those land rolls were optimal.
     
  8. Chimpo

    Chimpo

    Why is Tekken 6 afraid of Tekken 7? Member
    8,553
    1,424
    93
    Los Angeles, 2029
    Aiming for Genbu!
     
    • Agree Agree x 2
    • Like Like x 1
    • List
  9. Palas

    Palas

    Don't lose your temper so quickly. Member
    1,019
    680
    93
    And as @Laura pointed out in probably another thread, spindash doesn't work well in all surfaces. Curved surfaces may make you roll instead.
     
  10. Zephyr

    Zephyr

    Member
    3,466
    431
    63
    US
    Yeah there are also some places in Labyrinth Zone that I habitually roll off of ledges into a bounce, and my ability to consistently do so is definitely due (at least in part) to remembering where things are. Which isn't a problem in my book, but I know we'll agree to disagree there.

    Land rolling is all about maintaining flow, being able to break a monitor or badnik without having to stop or jump, simply keeping the forward momentum going. Again it's part of Sonic's toolkit as a momentum-based running man. And when you land roll off of a ledge into a bounce, then it also bleeds into Sonic's toolkit as a platforming character. There's a certain grace to executing these things successfully together.

    As the games are, there's not much "optimal" about keeping flow going outside of possible speedrunning applications. The incentive (for me at least) is the intrinsically exhilirating vibe of it. It feels good to pull off, and is thus fun. It's satisfying when I boot the game up, do a quick run through Green Hill and Marble, and nail all of these stunts in a single go. It makes me want to play them again later. But as long as we're conducting armchair design modifications to Sonic's larger gameplay loop in this side-conversation, maybe it would be cool if the game kept track of "combos" and awarded you additional score bonuses for stringing long ones together, similar in spirit to what SA2 did. Perhaps extended periods of rolling in certain instances could be read like "manuals" in Tony Hawk games, being the connective tissue between larger tricks.

    But at this point I'm probably just finding an 11th different way to say the same thing, so I'll just cap it with this, another 'unpopular' (?) opinion: I support the further Tony Hawk-ification of 'Classic'™ Sonic gameplay.
     
  11. Palas

    Palas

    Don't lose your temper so quickly. Member
    1,019
    680
    93
    This is where we'll differ: I appreciate the fact that the game hardly ever acknowledges this sort of mastery except through score, and even then not much. You acknowledge it alone. The natural incentive to playing like this is simply that you'll be invulnerable and generally will have an edge over the level's geometry more often. That, and -- personally -- when playing Mania for the first time I'd roll off a ledge into a bounce not because I already knew what was below, but exactly because I didn't. It's always safer to pull stunts like these, because I have more control and, if I bounce on anything, I just might end up where I was and can figure out what to do next. It's not optimal as in faster, but it is optimal by virtue of being the best way to simply survive.

    It's a contradiction: the best way to be cautious during gameplay is by being assertive. It is exhilarating to throw yourself at danger and perform "combos", but above that, I think it's beautiful that it's a natural skill ceiling that requires you not to learn how to be mechanically better at the game, but to change your whole perspective. And the classic games do that very naturally (either start jumping at stuff and preemptively attacking badniks or, at some point, you'll most likely lose all your lives because you're a coward). Stimulating this behavior by Tony-Hawking it (while it's still an A-to-B platforming game, that is) makes it seem like you're doing it to excel at the game, not as part of the core gameplay.

    EDIT: Also I think yours is a pretty popular opinion actually, at least here on Retro? It's not the first time I hear about it.
     
    Last edited: May 23, 2023
  12. Josh Cristan

    Josh Cristan

    Member
    136
    127
    43
    It seems to be a popular opinion that we've had a "saturation of Classic Sonic" over the past 10 years or so. I say bollocks. To put it into perspective, in the 29 years since Sonic 4, we've had a grand total of 5 new zones in the Classic Sonic style.
     
    • Agree Agree x 2
    • Like Like x 1
    • List
  13. The Joebro64

    The Joebro64

    SAY HELLO TO MY CHOCOLATE BLEND Member
    2,911
    2,539
    93
    This is what I would describe as a W opinion.
     
  14. kazz

    kazz

    16-bait Member
    414
    196
    43
    It's probably more to do with the oversaturation of Green Hill and Chemical Plant. Also I think the Generations version of Classic Sonic is just ugly and I'm sick of Sega telling me it's what I'm supposed to think Genesis-era Sonic looked like. So tired of that ugly baby blue fur color and retconned Felix The Cat mime personality and I'm probably not the only one.
     
  15. Overlord

    Overlord

    Now playable in Smash Bros Ultimate Moderator
    19,187
    952
    93
    Long-term happiness
    I put a lot of it down to Adventure-era fans seeing that the Classic and Classic-looking stuff got much higher wider approval than what they grew up on and being somewhat jealous imo, but that's just me.
     
  16. kazz

    kazz

    16-bait Member
    414
    196
    43
    I'm a Classic and an Adventure fan. And I proudly refuse to slurp up Generations/Forces' crap. :)
     
  17. I think the main reason is because in the past 10 years we've only gotten 4 new Sonic games, and of those 4 one is a full classic style game, another has 1/3rd of its runtime made up of "classic" style gameplay, another tries too hard to look "classic", and all 4 reuse classic era level themes.

    Edit: tacking on an unpopular opnion here (probably not unpopular at all), but level design aside, Forces tries to do a lot more with Chemical Plant than Generations does. The winter-y aesthetic, parts of the level spent outside the plant itself, the water and swing platform gimmick used in Network Terminal, all creative ideas that could've made a fantastic level. Unfortunately at the end of the day, great ideas mean nothing when one ends up being much more fun to play over the other.
     
    Last edited: May 23, 2023
    • Informative Informative x 1
    • List
  18. Vertette

    Vertette

    Member
    259
    153
    43
    It looked like they just threw some noise on Gens CPZ' textures and replaced the skybox to me tbqh fam.
     
  19. ELS

    ELS

    Member
    233
    64
    28
    I really hope that the improved S3K is something special because this is otherwise looking like a very underwhelming DLC.
     
  20. Blue Blood

    Blue Blood

    Member
    5,878
    815
    93
    It just sounds to me like you're just missing the point. We've had an over-saturation of weak-sauce, repetitive and shallow nostalgia pandering with regards to Classic Sonic. Take the fact that we keep seeing assets from Generations recycled verbatim over a decade after it was released.

    I'm all game for a new Classic Sonic series. As a fan of the various faces of Sonic the Hedgehog, little else would make me happier on a series focused on new content that draws from the so-called Classic era. But I'm sick to death of how SEGA seem to approach it. That's the problem here.