Discussion in 'General Sonic Discussion' started by Londinium, Jun 17, 2022.
Dude stop, you might hurt a corporation's feelings.
As Long as he promises not to touch the Genesis soundchip ever again
The problem is that he hasn't touched a Genesis soundchip since 1996.
The MK8 version of Mute City says hello. =P
On a completely unrelated note, can someone please explain to me why there are no S&ASRT level mods for Generations? I'm just curious.
Since we're on the topic of racing games, here is my unpopular opinion: I'd love to see a crossover between Mario Kart and the ASR series.
Is that unpopular? I think that could work.
So imagine the Classic Sonicgames. Same music, same aesthetic, same level design and everything, except you can't badnik bounce. You can't do slope jumps for height, distance, or speed. Can't super glide with Knuckles. Can't do any of the fun physics stuff.
Well, that's fine. Just have a solid platformer, right? You can still design a pretty fun-
No, that sounds freaking awful.
And yet, that is exactly the type of Sonic game too many people are playing. As of right now, the Classics are designed to where, to "beat" them, you don't really NEED to understand how to use the physics.
And that's fine. Yeah, you shouldn't know how to play the game in order to beat it, right? It's okay if the most fun things about the game you can pass threw the entire game and never notice, right? Yeah, it's all about accessibili-
No. Stop doing that.
I want them to design it to where, as an example, all the paths bottleneck into this section where you are GOING to learn at least how to slope jump, and you're going to like it, or you not going nowhere.
But the the depth of the Classics! You're narrowing the skill floor and ceiling. And unjoncnwov
I DON'T CARE.
And besides, I wouldn't make it to where you need to recognize and act upon EVERY opportunity to use the physics in fun ways in order to beat the game. So you can still have that stuff where you're running through a level for the millionth time, you see an incline and you're like, "Wait a sec. I wonder if I can-" And yeah.
If not to beat the game, then at least make reaching collectibles like red rings involve taking proper advantage of stuff like this. Think of how Mario games have "harder" stuff built into it's levels that is optional and not really relevant to beating the level. So at least a 100% guy who just can't take a hint can learn the stuff then.
And maybe have these collectibles on all paths of a level. When you collect one, it's saved forever even if you die or quit the level. Another reason to actually explore all the paths rather than just sticking to the first one you can comfortably stay on. The Big rings COULD do this. But the sheer number of them combined with the fact that at the end of the day you really only need seven and there's no objective tied to collecting them all is...
Also, time attack. This may not be an unpopular opinion but GHOST PLEASE.
You have a step in the right direction with Mania's leaderboards. Encourages actually trying in time attack mode. But having some base times to beat outside what's on that board that are actually reasonable, like a bronze, silver, gold, and maybe a dev time, would work well for those who want more of a set objective to beat and do not really care about their ranking in the world.
Also, you know how in a game like Sonic 2 or Advance 1 where if you can't do the platforming and reaction based challenge on the top path, the game will be like, "Awwwwww, that's okay. You don't have to do it if it's too hard. <" And you'll fall to a lower path?
Well, this is going to be unpopular, but I honestly think I prefer how SRB2 or Advance 3 does it at times. "Awwww, you couldn't do the platforming challenges and reaction based challenges needed to stay on the top path and fell down? Is it too hard? That's okay because TOO FREAKING BAD. RUN BACK TO THE START OF THIS SECTION AND DO IT AGAIN.
AND KEEP DOING IT UNTIL YOU GET IT RIGHT, MORON."
I honestly really like that, and I am not sure why.
But the replayability and the dsjnindcn-
As is, the only people who really have reason to care about staying on a certain path such as the top paths (really the optimal path, as it is not always the top) are speedrunners. So next time (if there is a next time because you're assuming they are going to play the game again) there isn't going to be that much incentive to really try to stay on that path and see what was missed.
Only time that is not the case is if there are actual objectives to explore for in the levels on ALL paths. Like what I mentioned earlier. I guess there is also KIND OF the thing that you're getting closer to the bottomless pits at the bottom, but nah. That's not enough or a threat that occurs enough to be a real incentive.
Also where is stuff like this? Around 0:36?
Where you’re asked to break so as to be a certain speed, neither too slow OR TOO FAST so as to get some concrete objective? I can’t really think of many outside this one instance.
Well I'll definitely give you that "actually the games should be bad" is certainly an unpopular opinion. Good job on that one I guess
If they ever go back to the multiple level paths concept (think SF64, not SHTH), I think required physics tricks could work nicely for hard path levels, considering you'd already have to be experienced with the game to get to them at all. Though yeah making them an absolute requirement is a little weird. A big part of why the physics in Sonic are so fun is that it allows you, regardless of the intended level path, to sequence break and otherwise do things (or at least feel like you're doing things) the developers didn't intend you to do. It lets you "break the rules" and make your own fun in a way a lot of other games don't. I think it might be better to have players organically experiment and figure that out themselves, if they choose to do so. Another nice thing about this system is that you don't have to pay attention to stuff like slope jumping and can moreso play it like a regular platformer if that's your preference (or y'know if you're a dumb kid).
I do "agree" to the extent that I think Sonic levels should all be chock full of opportunities to do physics tricks, just that they should be optional. I think I can understand being starved for that kinda thing considering how it just wasn't a part of the boost games.
The New games lack the creativity the player is allowed to come up with to reach new areas and handhold you excessively and as someone who has turbo autism who gets super serotonin hits off of finding things off the beaten path it makes the games feel super empty and its a slog to get through because there's literally no point in me looking around anywhere except "Obvious second path that has the rest of the red rings". I have to keep going back to older games after not playing them for X amt of time so I can forget the layouts because thats the only places I'm getting those feel good vibes. The new games are too linear and don't allow creative freedom.
The only thing literally keeping me from not trying the newer games is the banger music. I call all new sonic games "A cool soundtrack that has a 'game' attached to it".
Again, not every single opportunity to use the physics would be mandatory for basic progression. I'd just have sections where it is "mandatory" at like beginning of the game and maybe every now and then.
The objective is just to make sure they know how to do it. And locking someone in an area until they use a mechanic properly is like the basic thing you do when teaching stuff in a platformer.
And it's not like I'm going to have some huge text box or tutorial video play telling them exactly how to make it past, so there is your figuring the stuff out right there.
And when they know how, they can use it in other OPTIONAL opportunities for physics play as they see the if they see them and want to in order to do stuff like what you mentioned.
Pretty much everything else I said is just there to encourage something the games already should be, which is skill development rather than complacency. Making a player redo a section repeatedly until they pass is not the only way to do that....
...But it sure is a common and very effective one.
Also, not sure how giving an objective to speedrunning like times to beat and objective to exploring all paths like optional collectibles, things which encourage actually bothering with this stuff past just if you feel like it, is making the games "bad" but alright.
I am pretty sure you can avoid that entirely by going on the right paths.
And the reason this is bad is not because it is mandatory, but because the mechanic itself is unintuitive to use, being used in a way quite different from how you usually interact with mechanics, and giving feedback wrongly hinting at success when you jump on it, when it should do nothing when you do that.
Or at least, I think. I honestly don't remember struggling with this like what so many seemed to,
I never had an issue with the barrel myself, but that just makes me feel like I'm missing out on shared anguish!
I don't remember struggling with the barrel as a kid either. I think I just so happened to interpret the pattern on it as up and down arrows.
I brought it up a few times in the past, and everyone always told me "lol no", so I assumed it was unpopular.
As Cybershell once said, at 4:03
Thank Goodness I never saw vids of that person ^^"
Everybody who struggles with it, including me back in the day assume that you had to bounce attack down on the bloody thing. Then you find out that you had to simply press up and down to control it and you just feel even more frustrated than before.
I think Sonic - You Can Do Anything (which is the real title of the song) is a slice of endearing 90s cheese, personally, and I prefer the vocals to the terrible synthesizers that the Sonic CD 2011 remake and the TSR OST use in place of them. Just...pay the damn vocalists for the rights Sega, pls.
this is something I feel Frontiers averted pretty well IMO, even with the annoying 2D perspective lock for some of the puzzles in Chaos Island, you could still absolutely mess around and get things The Way You Want.
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