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Unpopular Sonic Opinions

Discussion in 'General Sonic Discussion' started by Londinium, Jun 17, 2022.

  1. Blue Blood

    Blue Blood

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    I've really never cared one iota for speed running. As much as I like the thrill of going fast in Sonic games, it's never my goal to get to the end of the level as quickly as possible. A lot of the time, I care more about the natural ebb and flow of speed variation, something you get brilliantly from the harmony between the level design and physics in the Classics, and to a lesser/different extent from the Adventure games, Heroes and '06. It's largely lost in the Boost games and feels much more artificial in both Lost World and Generations/Forces Classic Sonic. Going for a score attack is so much more fun than a time attack simply because you interact with the levels more. That's somewhere that SA2 and its ranking system really stand out, because they challenge you to actually play and engage with the levels whilst simultaneously going fast, rather than to do your best to cut out as much as possible. And further more, those interactions tend to be really gratifying. Of all of the 3D boost games, Unleashed manages it best, probably due to the level length. It doesn't measure up to the Rush series though.

    That's probably why I like the Classics and Adventures so much. I really enjoy getting the absolute most out of the levels. Especially when the levels get longer as in S3K, you really get a enjoyable rhythm and balance that encourages you to get a taste of everything on offer. Level skips are laaaaaaaaame and that's why I can't get into speed running (Sonic or otherwise). Do I want to perfect my routing and get the best time? No way. I just want to go with the flow, and unintentionally end up taking different routes on subsequent playthroughs. The Adventures are much more linear than the Classics, but they have their share of diversions. They're tuned for linear experiences that have variable pacing with a variety of interactions.
     
    Last edited: Mar 9, 2023
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  2. DigitalDuck

    DigitalDuck

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    Even as someone who does a fair amount of speedrunning myself, I greatly prefer score attacking. It's definitely a lot of fun to get through games as quickly as possible, with or without skips or glitches, and takes a lot of skill to do quickly, but when you're score attacking (in a well-designed game), the resulting run just looks so much cleaner and feels a lot more satisfying.

    The best way I can describe it is that when you're speedrunning, you're usually fighting the game in order to break its limits and go faster; it's a constant battle against the current. A score attack run tends to be exactly the opposite - rather than fighting the game, you let it take you where it wants you to go and use the flow to your advantage, obviously going out of your way to kill a few more enemies etc. but generally following the game as intended. It's a lot more elegant in that regard.

    Of course, when there are glitches or exploits that make infinite scoring much easier it completely destroys that, and likewise when a game is designed around speedrunning (or time attacks in general, e.g. racing games) then the speedrun becomes the flow, but in general it's not like that. One of my favourite hacks recently has been Sonic 1 Score Rush because it adds exactly this to Sonic 1, and I'm kinda disappointed it hasn't gotten much attention, Giova did a good job with it.
     
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  3. Blue Blood

    Blue Blood

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    This is the kind of extreme speed running that I especially dislike:


    At this point, the player is hardly even playing Sonic Unleashed. They've essentially created a different game. It's all about exploiting unintentional quirks in the programming and map design to perform to reach the goal as quickly as possible, with said goal basically being an arbitrary and vestigial. And that says nothing of of speedruns that employ techniques like RNG manipulation or arbitrary code execution. Like, sure its impressive that people can wrong warp from the Deku Tree to Ganon's Tower or whatever, but they've broken through so many limits that it's not even Ocarina of Time anymore. It's just a series button presses to bypass everything the game is supposed to be.

    At least with more "grounded" speedruns you're still playing the game for what it's intentionally got on offer. But you're still missing out on a lot of the content. To each their own of course. The pursuit of the perfect run in that way is what some people live for. I just don't get that appeal personally. And when it comes to Sonic specifically, it's all too easy to forget that there's more to the games that just going fast.

    It in going to play a Sonic game whilst striving for records, it'll be a score attack and I'll avoid exploits because that's against the spirit of things. But typically, I think of Sonic games as a bit of a rollercoaster. Rollercoasters have a pretty high average speed, but that speed always comes as a payoff for the slower moments when potential is being built. And no rollercoaster is just straight line with static speed. The twists and turns and climbs and falls are just as important.
     
  4. Ehfvanteis

    Ehfvanteis

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    Not sure if this an unpopular opinion, but it seems obvious that - ever since Sonic Boom ended - Sega has been everything it can to "unify" the brand and make it cohesive. Leaving aside the movies, we have two pretty distinct mainstream versions of Sonic: classic and modern. Things like the characterisation mandates and the fixed "look" of Sonic's character model means everything has a pretty tight consistency.

    The thing is... I love how wacky and inconsistent the brand has been over the years. I grew up on Sonic the Comic, and loved how different both AoSTH, SatAM, and even the OVA were from the games. Discovering Archie existed was mind-blowing (even if it's not my personal favourite), and I'm a huge fan of the Sonic Boom TV series. The variety in the dark age games - from the art styles of Sonic Battle and Riders to the "hyper-realism" of Sonic 06 - it just works for me. Even Sonic Underground (with all it's many sins) has a really unique personality.

    There's a lot of appeal in brand consistency, and I understand why Sega is going for that, but my personal preference is to keep experimenting and to never sit still. I'd love it if multiple creative teams could try out vastly different interpretations of art styles, characters, and gameplay - a bit like Zelda, which is always innovating and rarely has direct sequels.

    I'm a bit of a hypocrite, since I love having a "core" series with continuity (I loved Frontiers, and the callbacks to past games were beyond what I'd hoped for). My thoughts are that, so long as we have a core "mainline" series, then I'd love to see much more variety and experimentation going forward in the spin-offs.

    Sure, it makes sense to keep building upon what works in the "main" series, but don't stop the creative, funky, and unexpected offshoots - heck, I'd even take another Sonic Riders or Storybook game just to mix things up.
     
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  5. I agree with you Ehfvanteis. When I was a kid growing up around 2010, we had re-runs of AoStH, SatAM, and Underground airing on TV on a channel called Pop!. We also had Sonic X airing on TV on a channel called Jetix. I grew up watching all of them simultaneously, not knowing how old any of the shows actually were - just enjoying more Sonic. I played Sonic Adventure DX, Heroes, the PC port "Sonic and Knuckles Collection", and all the Sonic Wii games up to Colours at the same time. I watched videos about Archie on Youtube before I had the chance to read them myself (and the fight between Enerjak and Super Sonic was the coolest thing I'd ever seen as an 9 year old). A lot of the playthroughs I watched were Sonic 06/Shadow the Hedgehog/Unleashed related. So my perception of Sonic as a child was always that he had a lot of different interpretations and variations and I really liked that. They all just co-existed in my head.

    I remember being quite confused after discovering that there was a fanbase for Sonic online and reading some pretty intense vitriol directed at any other versions of Sonic beyond SEGA-Sonic as a youngster - like, "wait, do people not like Sonic? Or is it just the stuff that's not Japanese or older than me?" (A kid doesn't know anything about a 'lack of core brand identity' so that's what my younger self took in before I stepped away from Internet discussions about things I like haha - obviously, I like a more cohesive "core" identity now, but it would be nice to continue with the unique off-shoots so kids today can have a variety of Sonics. That's what Paramount is doing now which is cool. But I get why others may not feel that way).
     
  6. Forte

    Forte

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    The fact that there are so many different versions of Sonic is great. Thanks to this, each of us got to know the world of the blue hedgehog in his own unique way and has his own favorite version. Comics have been doing this for a long time - creating alternate versions of heroes and telling stories that no one would dare to in canon - Marvel What If is a brilliant example here.

    Meanwhile, Sega is trying to unify... - Okay, sure, I get it. They want to have more control over IP and not dilute it...

    However, the power of the brand lies in its different versions. I didn't grow up with Archie Sonic, and I still love these comics. I'm sure a lot of people over time got to know the alternate versions of these characters and loved them.

    What I'm ytying to say is - sure, Sega has the right to and should take better care of their Sonic IP than they have done so far.
    Buuuut... they shouldn't forget the Sonic Multiverse fans either. Throw in some comic sometimes, maybe some cartoon special?

    Are we really going to pretend that Into the Spiderverse and related projects don't exist and aren't successful? Oh Sega...

    (and no, Prime doesn't count. Prime doesn't use existing worlds, it creates new ones.)
     
  7. In the 90's, Sega were basically trying to get Sonic's name out there as much as possible. Consistency be damned. It was an aggressive push that led to so many different interpretations and continuities for Sonic.

    Sonic's a household name now, and with the movies putting much more mainstream attention onto the franchise than ever before, it was almost inevitable that Sega were gonna start homoegenizing the brand to make it more welcoming to casuals and hard-core fans alike.

    It was the same exact thing Marvel did with their IP's once the MCU blew up in popularity and its still like that to this day.
     
  8. DefinitiveDubs

    DefinitiveDubs

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    I don't like the whole "Team" gimmick that everyone likes to put characters in. The comics having a history of slapping groups of characters into "Teams" has never failed to make me groan. It was fun for one game, but I don't understand why people want Team Dark to be a group of longtime friends when they were only together for a common goal during Heroes, and after that I don't see why they wouldn't have gone their separate ways. Aside from casual banter, there was no evidence that they actually bonded at any point in the game. I know they're together in 06 as employees of GUN, but anyone who's read this thread knows how much I hate that too.

    Team Rose never made any sense and neither does Team Sonic. Tails following Sonic around makes some sense since he has a history of that (even though he should be more independent), but Knuckles being attached to them by the hip is dumb any way you slice it. I don't even like him in Heroes. Why is he there just casually hanging out with Tails? Putting all these characters in teams all the time robs them of independence. Sonic certainly doesn't need Knuckles to kick Eggman's ass.

    The only teams I vibe with are Team Chaotix and Team Hooligan. But even then, I hate calling them that. The Chaotix have always been together, and they're a business. And it makes sense that Fang would have his own gang. But there's no reason to limit them to having 3 members just for the sake of a callback to one game from 20 years ago that not many people like.
     
  9. Forte

    Forte

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    You do know that people bond over time, especially after adventuring together?

    I mean, I can see why Team Rose is a bit irrational, but friendship within Team Sonic is obvious.

    I agree on Chaotix.

    Team Dark is indeed the tricky one - Rouge definitely has a soft spot for Shadow, because he saved her back in Adventure 2, yet - in Heroes she believed he's not even the real one. Omega? I think it's mutual respect - they both have been created as weapons, both put in stasis for some time, both wanting to achieve more, than they were created for. They don't need to be chatty with one another to be friends, or to understand each other, just being there for each other - like Rouge said to Shadow in 06.
     
  10. We don't see a lot what these characters do in their downtime or any bonding they do, so it can be hard to see any real relationships being formed outside the "main" cast surrounding Sonic.

    But I feel like there's enough there to infer a friendship even with the scraps we got. Shadow's not really the type to open up about his feelings, but he's helped Rouge and Omega enough times where its not hard to see that he does care about them even if he's terrible at expressing it.

    Its why him being so distant from them lately rubs fans the wrong way. Not that Shadow isn't aloof, but he doesn't seem to care about anything nowadays whereas before, he could at least be bothered to give a damn about someone or two.
     
  11. DefinitiveDubs

    DefinitiveDubs

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    You're missing the point. It's not about them being friends. It's about them being a team of 3 individuals, which was only relevant for one game. Of course Knuckles and Sonic are friends. But Sonic, Tails, and Knuckles are not an inseparable group of 3 that's always together. Tails and Knuckles have their own lives separate from Sonic. Their lives don't revolve around him. And Sonic has way more friends than that, he doesn't have a tiny group of tight-knit friends. Knuckles is no closer to him than Amy or Shadow are.

    Sonic, Tails, and Knuckles are not friends just because they go on adventures together, they're friends because they understand each other, learn from each other, and genuinely like being around each other. That is not the case with Team Dark. When Team Sonic do their quips in Heroes, it feels like casual banter among friends. When Team Dark does it, it's all business. They're focused on the goal. They are partners, not friends. It's not that they don't care about each other, there's still a great deal of respect between them, it's just that they probably don't hang out outside of missions nor will they invite each other to their weddings. That's not cynicism, it's just reality. That's how real relationships between people tend to work.
     
    Last edited: Mar 15, 2023
  12. When I think about it, I agree with what you're saying. (At least, as far as the games) But I don't like it all and I wish you had not said that so I would not have to think about it. lol
     
  13. Like I said, we don't really see what the characters get up to in their free time to understand how close they are. Fans will, of course, read a lot deeper into things than what's probably there, but its not like we can make a definitive call and be like "Yes, these characters are the bestest of friends ever"
     
  14. shilz

    shilz

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    I'd argue that a low level connection like that makes the times they do come together even more significant in comparison to when they're buisness as usual (even though we don't really have an idea of what that is for Omega, Shadow and Rouge at least are going to be alone most of the time). Sure, nobody's going to reach out for any particular reason, but I don't think that means they can't be recognized or recognize themselves as a team when it does happen.
     
  15. Ch1pper

    Ch1pper

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    This feels like one of those aspects that was labeled for easy gameplay distinctions, then people took it too literally.
    But I'm amused at how I'll see that Ian Flynn has worked it into the worldbuilding of the comics.

    How dare he bring it full circle and make it make sense in context of a canon! Jerk. :V
     
  16. Sonic works better in alternative media than he has as a game, and it kind of has always been that way. I've seen exactly one person (actually inside the fandom) express that view, and at the time I kind of thought he was crazy. Now, thinking about it, I no longer do.

    I keep forgetting that what got me into Sonic, like got me REALLY into Sonic was not the games at all. What captured most of my attention as a kid was DVD versions of the old cartoons, and then later edgy AMV's by StormRedDesert and others on Youtube. And even today, when I focus on the games and what I think of them, my enthusiasm for the franchise wanes. But when I devote attention to something else...

    Well...

    (Relatively) recently I read through all of Archie and felt a love for a franchise I had not felt for a long time. And even more recently, or perhaps I should say ACTUALLY recently, I read through and got caught up with IDW. And while I didn't like it NEARLY as much as the best of Archie Sonic back when I was reading it, i do still like it to a degree and have a reasonable enough desire to see more of that world and the characters in it.

    That is not the case with the games. Ignoring the apparent quality of their gameplay and just focusing on the story, I find the only times I can even sit through the game's stories is if I sit down to watch a Youtube video dedicated to them. While playing the games myself, I can just not remain interested enough to hold back from skipping the cutscenes. Man, sometimes that isn't even enough and I'll get bored watching these cutscene videos (called "movies" on YouTube for some reason) and drop them.

    Even when I finish them I don't often look back favorably on how I spent that time, and I tend to forget them soon afterwards.

    And I think anyone who has seen anything I have posted ever (and actually remembers them) probably knows what I think of the actual gameplay of Sonic games. Something that has potential that it has never quite reached, and likely never will reach because of flaws in execution, following design philosophies I view as fundamentally flawed, or NOT following ones I view as necessary to make fun games in general.
     
    Last edited: Mar 20, 2023
  17. Ch1pper

    Ch1pper

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    Oh, I just remembered a legit unpopular opinion:

    I sort of like the music in Sonic Eraser.
    But I absolutely get why everyone hates it. It's obnoxious in-game. I just don't mind listening to it once in a while on its own. :V
     
  18. rockyandyipper

    rockyandyipper

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    I enjoyed the wedding scenes in Sonic 2. I found them neat in a dumb way. I know they are really dumb and unnecessary, but I think they're fun in a cringe, guilty pleasure way.
     
  19. Londinium

    Londinium

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    Just like every Sonic game ever :ruby:
     
  20. Chimes

    Chimes

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    The composition's great but the sound design is hideous. Versus Mode is definitely trying to be 16 bit prog.