don't click here

Unpopular Sonic Opinions

Discussion in 'General Sonic Discussion' started by Londinium, Jun 17, 2022.

  1. Jayextee

    Jayextee

    Unpopular Opinions™ Member
    3,253
    67
    28
    Atro City
    I DONE MAKED GAMES.
    A sum total of one of those box sections are mandatory. First one in act 3. The rest, yeah, they can be skipped with the correct routing. Funnily enough I have the same defence of Marble Zone's lava segments when people say they hate the waiting. Like, bruh, just jump over them. Except that one needed to get higher up in (again) act 3.
     
    • Like Like x 4
    • Agree Agree x 1
    • List
  2. Blue Blood

    Blue Blood

    Member
    6,253
    1,022
    93
    "But you can just take a different path" is a poor argument. It assumes that the player has prior knowledge of the different routes available, and that the other routes are any better. All of the routes should be enjoyable, and that's a trait shared by the best levels in any of the Classic games.
     
  3. Jayextee

    Jayextee

    Unpopular Opinions™ Member
    3,253
    67
    28
    Atro City
    I DONE MAKED GAMES.
    The game at that point, by the third zone, has already shown alternative routes and incentivised them. If a player doesn't know by then to maybe try exploring, it's on them; notwithstanding the player literally being thrown from the deep half-pipe to the box-skipping upper route at the beginning of act 2.
     
  4. Technically Inept

    Technically Inept

    Least Jaded Sonic Fan Member
    410
    126
    43
    I am very curious what incentives to explore the alternate routes you are referring to, Jayextee. Because i don't think a few extra rings is going to be strong enough for most people, nor are minor powerups as mundane as invincibility or taking an extra hit, unless they are already on the impression this is going to be a difficult game.

    And the zone that may be an indication of that, Marble, is quite linear. And as far as alternate paths that a player could actually reasonably notice in it, they may not appear to have a clear advantage over others unless the player is familiar already with what's waiting for them on the other paths. So how is is that going to teach and incentivize people to "explore"?

    No one is going to know to try jumping on those blocks in Marble Zone in order to bypass waiting first time around, as the next platform to jump to is so far to left/right that they are not even on screen.

    And some of the skips in Spring Yard are so insane and out of left field absolutely NO ONE is going to know to try them initially regardlesss if they have an explorative leaning or not. Point still stands.
     
    Last edited: Feb 27, 2023
  5. Jayextee

    Jayextee

    Unpopular Opinions™ Member
    3,253
    67
    28
    Atro City
    I DONE MAKED GAMES.
    Not the alternate routes, but alternates in general. Y'know, stuff like items atop loops or platforms right above the GHZ1 midair cache of rings are visual indicators that there are things if you look off the beaten path. I doubt a player is suddenly going to forget this by zone three, despite Marble Zone's linearity.

    And yet, the 1-up monitor in Marble Zone 2 is placed in the perfect location for a missed blind jump to reveal, almost like the layout designer (Yasuhara?) pre-empted this. Indeed, it's how I found it, literally on my first playthrough back in late 1991, so I'm side-eyeing that 'no one' bit of this.

    Some of them are, yes. If by which you mean the act 1 block sections, which require a power sneaker-fueled ascent off the top of the stage. I'll concede that. But the act 2 block skips? As I say, the deep halfpipe literally flings you up there. Act 3's latter two block sections? If you're observant, there's a platform taking you up to possibly the game's most-awkward jump which can be used to skip it. Although not on my first playthrough, I was personally doing this in the early '90s without any Internet guides or similar to inform me.

    Either way, we're arguing semantics in an unpopular opinions thread. I've provided the unpopular opinions, you're going "yeah BUT..." -- I feel like one of us has misread the spirit here.
     
  6. Zephyr

    Zephyr

    Member
    3,733
    631
    93
    US
    On one hand, I think some paths through a stage, some techniques, etc. only being found out on subsequent playthroughs of a game is 100% fine. Especially for a game that was literally designed with multiple playthroughs in mind.

    On the other hand, what would or would not occur to a first-time player would be a lot more relevant if it were a first-time player saying that 80% of Spring Yard Zone is waiting for the blocks. Digital Duck is a seasoned player.
     
  7. Technically Inept

    Technically Inept

    Least Jaded Sonic Fan Member
    410
    126
    43
    What section are you referring to in Act 2 exactly? Because even if you for some reason jump high enough for the life up monitor to come into view in the section underneath it, which I don't think I have ever done because there I see little reason to jump there, that still doesn't automatically show that you can skip the blocks. It just shows you that after the waiting section there may be a hidden secret in the wall you are facing.

    I don't dislike Marble or Spring Yard either, and in fact appreciate elements of both. (Some of which elements can only be appreciated on later playthroughs, but I digress) However, I don't think they were overall designed in an ideal manner. And I absolutely do not see reason to blame the PLAYER for bad experiences they may have with them as a result of their design.

    The primary reason to replay a game and learn stuff like this is because it was fun the first time around. So while having good elements a player may not notice the first time around is a good way to encourage replaying, I don't really think forcing BAD elements on them they'll only (maybe) figure out how to avoid on later playthroughs is necessarily so.

    Also, i ninja edited. Sorry about that.
     
    Last edited: Feb 27, 2023
  8. This this this this so much this. A few sonic games are guilty of not doing this at all, and they end up having extremely hot and cold reception amongst fans as a result
     
  9. Technically Inept

    Technically Inept

    Least Jaded Sonic Fan Member
    410
    126
    43
    Decided I wanted to play Sonic 1 today, so I did. I went with the CW version because that's what I currently have access to, though I did decide to turn the spindash off.

    I mean it when I say I could go for another game with this game's style of level design. A Sonic game that puts a higher emphasis on traditional platforming that requires (a degree) of more precision. You can keep the waiting based platforming out, though. (Though I honestly don't mind the times it is forced THAT much)

    To be honest, you can forget "speed" in it's near entirety. If it is not being used alongside timed jumps to take advantage of angles in the terrain, a focus on speed can honestly go jump off a cliff for all I care.

    Also, outside of some of the hazards on the conveyor belts, from what I experienced sticking to the higher parts of the map, Scrap Brain Act 1 and 2 are legitimately kind of alright at what they're trying to be, challenging final zones. Better than something like Metropolis Zone at least. Rather than "difficulty" coming from poorly placed and telegraphed enemies, Scrap Brain actually kind of test the ability to land jumps properly and even a bit of timing sometimes with periodically spinning and disappearing platforms in Act 1 and the spinning wheel things in Act 2 (I have no idea what they're called. lol) Could use a little more of that, tbh. Though I honestly feel there is only so far they can go with it due to how Sonic controls.

    I don't really have anything to say about Act 3 because I didn't actually play it. I used the skip at the beginning. i really should go play that act the legitimate way sometime just to remember what it is like. It's been a while.

    I could go on about how Final Zone is really boring, but that probably wouldn't be in keeping with the theme of the thread...
     
    Last edited: Feb 28, 2023
  10. charcoal

    charcoal

    Be Cool, Be Wild, and Be Groovy Member
    1,228
    1,194
    93
    I think Marble is alright though surprisingly enough. Once I get the impatience out of my system, it's a serviceable enough platforming level.

    Labyrinth gives me anxiety though, I spend the entire thing wondering just how much air I have left and if I'll be able to make it to a bubble in time to live.

    With Sonic 1 in general, part of me wants to give it a harsher time for not being as good as its successors, but I can't help but think it's a pretty fun time despite its shortcomings. Not like it overstays it's welcome, it's only around an hour long.
     
    Last edited: Feb 28, 2023
  11. DigitalDuck

    DigitalDuck

    Arriving four years late. Member
    5,417
    492
    63
    Lincs, UK
    TurBoa, S1RL
    Obviously I'm exaggerating, but it certainly feels like 80%. The boxes move slowly, they are not fun, challenging, or interesting obstacles and serve no purpose except to bore the player.

    So all of this is a stupid argument, for many reasons:

    1. For a first time player, you will encounter the boxes before you're even aware that there's an alternate path, and in most cases by the time you see the boxes you can't backtrack to avoid them.
    - SYZ1, first set: if you've already used the speed shoes, you can't avoid them
    - SYZ1, second set: spinning spikeballs stop you from backtracking unless you want to take lots of damage
    - SYZ1, third set: the only one you can always avoid after encountering
    - SYZ2: spinning spikeballs again, unless they want to take the alternate route which is... also waiting for boxes!
    - SYZ3, first set: unavoidable
    - SYZ3, second set: the door you open to get there closes, blocking you off
    - SYZ3, third set: the box blocks the shortcut off if you're too slow

    So not only can you not just "avoid them by exploring", if you don't know the level in advance it's entirely reasonable to expect the player to actually be forced into at least five of the seven.

    Yes, in most cases you can see there are alternate routes. But you don't know which one of the routes will lead you to the boxes until you get to the boxes, and then you can't go back to take the other route.

    2. If you're planning your route avoiding them, the level becomes even more linear than Marble Zone. You get a small choice of route at the end of SYZ2 and that's it.

    3. "You can avoid it" isn't an excuse for "most of the level is shit". That's like saying "that pit in Mystic Cave Zone isn't a problem - just don't jump down it". A better solution would be to make the level fun to play on all routes. As I said above, the boxes are not fun, challenging, or interesting obstacles. It may as well just be a slow-moving elevator.

    Imagine this: A Sonic level with everything, you've got action sequences, intense platforming, multiple routes up the wazoo, banging music, everything you need. But also there are multiple spots where the game freezes you in place and delivers a ten minute speech on the differences between weasels and otters. There's one route that only has one of these speeches, but you don't know which route it is in advance, or that there will be Mustelid lectures included in the level before you play it.

    Is it still a good level, because you can play a portion of the action sequences on one route? Would you agree that the level would probably be improved without the speeches?

    (and then add to that the fact that SYZ isn't really all that interesting otherwise anyway)
     
  12. Jayextee

    Jayextee

    Unpopular Opinions™ Member
    3,253
    67
    28
    Atro City
    I DONE MAKED GAMES.
    I don't know why you're RP'ing as first-time players here though, I don't think that counts many people in this thread nor forum. I certainly didn't initially mention any first playthroughs until other people did; and stand by my POV that if a player (and I guess I have to stress on a repeat playthrough) isn't open to exploring and still complains about obstacles that are skippable, it's on them.

    It's not an argument, it's an unpopular opinion as per the thread title. I'm beginning to regret engaging because people always miss that little detail. As such, don't quote me again. I'm done here.
     
  13. Technically Inept

    Technically Inept

    Least Jaded Sonic Fan Member
    410
    126
    43
    Nah, don't say that. You'll make me feel bad. lol

    Ok, so I think it's discussed a lot what is "good" or "bad'' design, but I do recognize that what is "good" or "bad' is ultimately subjective because the standards one uses to determine if design is good or bad are themselves subjective. Like for example, let's just say that, theoretically, you actually agreed with any of the crap I'm saying. You can still turn around and say "It's still good design," because you don't care about what I'm saying. It doesn't take take away enough from your experience to deter you. Or maybe it enhances it somehow...

    ...And that would be perfectly legit in my book.

    Me? I'm only concerned about this stuff, I only "rp as first time players" because I'm concerned about how the general gaming community views Sonic games. I want Sonic's gameplay elements to have broader appeal, and stuff like this is part of what I think is necessary in order for that to happen.

    By the way, "rping as first time players'' is the reason the drop dash is in Mania according to the interviews I've read, something implemented because Whitehead's observations of new player's struggles with momentum based obstacles. So, I think there is SOME merit in it, eh? lol
     
    Last edited: Feb 28, 2023
  14. Palas

    Palas

    Don't lose your temper so quickly. Member
    1,274
    910
    93
    So here's an unpopular opinion: I don't mind the boxes in Spring Yard too much. Except the fact they'll instakill you sometimes, sure. I don't mind that they're a slow section, although -- come to think of it -- it doesn't blend all that nicely with the rest of what the level has to offer. I like that some asshole buzz bombers will shoot at you while you're between them, and I think it's a nice little challenge to try to dodge them in close quarters.
     
    Last edited: Mar 1, 2023
  15. DigitalDuck

    DigitalDuck

    Arriving four years late. Member
    5,417
    492
    63
    Lincs, UK
    TurBoa, S1RL
    To add to this, I'm not "rping as a first time player" - I'm simply pointing out that:
    a) first-time players will not be able to avoid this, because you cannot backtrack,
    b) if you want to avoid (most of them) you're restricted to essentially a single route, and
    c) it would be massively improved by removing the problem

    Apparently unpopular opinion: saying something isn't an issue because you can avoid (some of) it by deliberately routing around half of the level (on repeat playthroughs) is a stupid take. "Someone put a pile of shit on your burger? Just eat around it!" </hyperbole>


    Since this got brought up, another unpopular opinion: I really don't like what the drop dash does to gameplay. On its own it's a good move, but it's way too easy to abuse and gives you the ability to traverse quickly without ever uncurling. In fact, most of Classic Sonic's moveset (and since, but that's a different issue) seems to have geared towards helping first time players but removes depth at the same time. I did write a whole thing about this but it's probably not the thread for it, so I'll give a quick summary.

    Drop Dash is an OP Spindash, and Spindash is already OP; Peelout is better from a balance perspective because you're vulnerable while using it and you can't shoot off instantly, but it's also better for beginners since it doesn't lock you in a rolling state.

    Air curling (from Triple Trouble) and Insta-Shield are both great, but I'd be tempted to combine the two: Insta-Shield can be used while running or rolling off a ledge, or bouncing off a spring, and Sonic curls while using it; but when the move is done, Sonic always uncurls, even if he did the Insta-Shield from a jumping state. Beginners get benefit from using the air curling functionality of it and can learn the riskier, advanced uses of temporary invincibility to destroy badniks or damage bosses when their weak spots aren't exposed. It also doubles as air uncurling, and levels could be designed to make use of this ability (that Tails and Knuckles also have via their air moves) by having ground that breaks if you jump or roll on it, but not if you fall on it (like many objects already do).

    Hopefully not an unpopular opinion, but just to finish the set: skimming on water is cool and it's a crime that it was never really done outside of the 8-bit games.
     
  16. DefinitiveDubs

    DefinitiveDubs

    Member
    1,099
    851
    93
    Man I came in here seeing people talk about "RPing" Sonic and I thought this thread was getting weird for a sec.
     
  17. Yuzu

    Yuzu

    Member
    2,553
    56
    28
    my unpopular opinion is that i only played Sonic Advance 2 for the first time a year ago right after finishing the original game, and I honestly liked it quite a lot. It's not perfect, but nevertheless I had a lot of fun with the game. Wasn't a huge fan of the trick system though, and did not like how the game did not really do a great job explaining it? I guess if I had the manual I'd feel differently about that. It was cool in a lot of ways to see a transitionary game which very much like it had an early version of Rush style gameplay.
     
  18. GoldeMan

    GoldeMan

    Member
    226
    186
    43
    Texas
    As a kid I got stuck at Sky Canyon because it relies a lot on the trick system (or maybe I was just bad) which I didn't know existed until a few years after. And that Knuckles boss fight is infuriating the one time I made it to it.
     
  19. Yuzu

    Yuzu

    Member
    2,553
    56
    28
    I got stuck on Sky Canyon without knowing about the trick system! It was definitely a wakeup call when I youtubed someone playing the stage and realized I was entirely playing the game wrong lol.
     
  20. Chimpo

    Chimpo

    Happiest Retro Poster Member
    9,383
    2,243
    93
    Los Angeles, 2029
    Banana
    I love Sonic 1 over the rest of the games