Discussion in 'General Sonic Discussion' started by Londinium, Jun 17, 2022.
Sonic 3D Blast is actually a pretty good game.
I don't like the "Fang the Sniper" name, I prefer "Nack the Weasel".
I like Marble Garden Zone.
I don't like the "figure-8" animation used by the peel-out, I prefer the simple circle.
I don't like the jumping and the skidding sound effects used in Sonic CD.
I like Bridge Zone.
especially if you play the DX cut which added Super Sonic and many bug fixes and changes.
Idk if this count as an "unpopular opinion" but I think people are going to have accept that a great 3D Sonic game will have to be very short. For someone as speedy as Sonic, you need to design levels much bigger than other 3D platformers. That takes lots of resources, and likely is why every 3D Sonic game has had some sort of excuse to justify slowing down the gameplay and/or heavily reusing assets. That's the stated reason why SA1 has 6 characters instead of just being about Sonic.
As for the discussion about bosses: I think they're fine. They make the gameplay less monotonous and are often short enough to not overstay their welcome. It also adds characterization: it would feel empty if Eggman didn't show up to harass you throughout the game. Yes, many Sonic bosses are easy and are in of themselves kinda crappy. But sometimes you have to crap on the game a little to make it better overall. Interesting contradiction, huh?
Metropolis Zone isn't that bad of a zone. Yeah it's hard, but it feels incredibly satisfying to go through once you understand how it really works. It's not really a movement-based zone, but it's moreso focused on challenging your skills in terms of platforming, I think anyways. I like it and don't think it's that bad.
I don't BLAME people not for liking it though, stuff like that can always be very hit-and-miss. But it's still a really fun time for me, I've literally booted up Sonic 2 just to play Metropolis sometimes - across all versions, too, so I know it's not just a Christian Whitehead port thing.
Impossible to overstate how much I agree with this. When I first got all Chaos Emeralds in S3&K I was mesmerized by the "deal with the devil" aspect of the transformation. You had the power to blast through a stage, but you absolutely HAD to blast through a stage, or else. It's the one reason the ring teleport thing in Death Egg is weird that way. It's nerve-racking to see your ring count going down while Sonic does unnecessary loops in the air.
I'll go one step forward: I think the idea of mapping the transformation to a different button has the same problem. I want Super Sonic to have a tradeoff -- again, a deal with the devil kinda thing. Replacing the insta-shield with it seems fair enough, and I'd have had the transformation cancel the shield's abilities too.
I think having a super button is fine, because the insta-shield is one thing, but characters like Tails and Knuckles who have key abilities mapped to jump can be kind of forced to transform against their will. I remember the big reason people wanted a super button in Mania was because of a specific section of Knuckles' Lava Reef Act 2 made it impossible to get through without getting Super if you hit the 50 ring mark, and I could be totally wrong, but I think it just forced a death due to HAVING to go Super, meaning you can't glide? I could be wrong there, but the point is it still made it much harder than it used to be.
Super Cancel is it's own topic, but I think a super button is fine because it still keeps that "tradeoff" thing while still being somewhat optional, which goes to your point of wanting it to be a risky play of sorts. Being punished for collecting all 7 emeralds and having 50 rings, albeit very temporarily, seems a bit much when you don't want to transform.
Well, here goes:
Amy serves no purpose as a character.
Even in CD, what is she there for exactly? What does she do? She's a damsel in distress who gets kidnapped. That's it. Why make a brand new character just for that? If not for the fact that CD was made alongside Sonic 2 (when there just were no other characters), Amy's role in the story could've easily been filled by Tails. Hell, that's basically what happens in Sonic 2 8-bit.
Sonic Adventure? She exists as an excuse to get Sonic into Twinkle Park, a level that already barely justifies its existence in the story. Her entire section in Sonic's story, and her own, is filler. She gets kidnapped and sent to the Egg Carrier, but Sonic and Tails were already going to board it anyway, and once they're there, they don't seem to give a shit about Amy. I guess she ties into Gamma's subplot, but does she anything there that couldn't have been done by other characters?
In SA2, she breaks Sonic out of prison, but wasn't Tails going to do that anyway? Why does he need Amy? Why does Shadow need Amy, specifically, to make him have a change of heart? Why not Rouge or someone? And in every game after that, she is just there. What a waste.
That's on the level, and I think there being sections that demans specific abilities to go through are horrible in the first place, super transformation or not (unless these sections themselves are like those dead ends full of rewards like that part in Hidden Palace that only Tails can reach).
This applies to vines/rocks in Angel Island that demanded the spindash too.
In Sonic 1, I think Marble Zone is a perfectly fun level. But Spring Yard Zone is usually where I hit a brick wall. It's got a few fun setpieces, but there are a ton of things I just find obnoxious to deal with, like those stupid elevators that take forever and crush you if you're not fast enough. Then you've got good ol' Labyrinth Zone, which nobody likes, but after that I don't like Star Light Zone either! It feels like a complete mess of random stuff just floating in the air. I often see people say that it's one of the best zones in the game and a breath of fresh air after Labyrinth hell, but I don't agree at all.
Over in S3K, I actually think the S&K half of the game is much better. In S3, I adore the first two zones, but Marble Garden and Carnival Night are absolute slogs. Ice Cap isn't great either. At least the proto music makes CNZ infinitely more bearable, but the opposite goes for Ice Cap (okay maybe that part isn't such a hot take.) Meanwhile in S&K, I like Sandopolis and the first act of Lava Reef just fine, so the game doesn't hit a bad point until Lava Reef Act 2. Then Sky Sanctuary is fantastic, and Death Egg Zone... isn't too great. But still, a much better batting average in that side of the game.
I disagree heavily, because having sections catered to specific abilities ensures that they get some use, but also it just offers unique routing and level design that can only be experienced with one character (but is entirely optional, though that other route may have extra goodies/special stages/etc., while still leading to the regular ending of the level). I don't think having a specific route that takes advantage of character abilities is all that bad. Different routes is what makes classic Sonic work so well, because they're big levels that want to be tackled in many different ways.
Removing that would just be kind of a bummer, and it'd almost certainly make some Sonic levels not as interesting. Sure, as Sonic the need for abilities being *required* doesn't come up much, and as Tails/Knuckles you don't really need them super frequently in the same manner either, but having them isn't necessarily a bad thing. A lot of Sonic levels are designed for the most basic abilities, so why not have small sections of the level that give Knuckles some time to really shine with his special trait of gliding and climbing?
As much as I agree, I was mainly talking about sections that need the ability otherwise you can't proceed at all (like with the vines). Still, if it's a character-exclusive route anyway, I don't mind the transformation being necessary at all. You chose it. You were feeling confident enough. If you aren't, take other route. This game is for the brave. (Last statement was tongue-in-cheek... but not that much either).
In the case of Knuckles though, sometimes he's forced into routes where that is required. The Mania LRZ2 example I mentioned is why people wanted a Super button there in the first place. So he might often *have* to transform against his will, which is rather unfortunate if you wanted to save it for later. Haven't played a game as Knux in a bit, but I know that comes up elsewhere in his route.
Besides that, having to choose your own route based on "Do I have the emeralds and over 50 rings" is a little silly. At that point it becomes less of a "deal with the devil" kind of mechanic and more of a punishment for playing well, forcing you to take specific routes so that you avoid having to transform. I'm truthfully making it sound a lot worse than it really would be - oh no, I have to be invincible and faster! Woe is me! (But then again, one might want to still have all the emeralds and avoid transforming for extra challenge)
But still, I think it'd be kinda weird to punish players for that intentionally. Having a super button is fine, and it still keeps that idea of it being a tempting deal to make, one with a cost, intact. It's always a looming option - you know you can take it. Forcing players into it for playing well enough to get all 7 emeralds is maybe a bit cruel.
Remembered another one: I don’t like Super Sonic at all.
Not in a gameplay sense. Super and Hyoer Sonic are pretty cool reward for beating the special stages. I am talking about in the story, aesthetic, and cutscene sense.
Base Sonic just looks better. And
simply put, they changed Sonic’s movement style into something very generic. The high speed parkour he was doing in the CD and first part of the Unleashed intro will always be 100x cooler than just slowly flying around.
In fact, they didn’t need to give him the ability to fly at all. Just enhancing his speed and maneuverability even further to allow him to pull off even crazier stunts and stuff would have been way better
SA2 is overrated
In whose eyes? That is an extremely controversial game. Lol
Well, given what was happening in the story, she's the one who told Gamma that he has a will to make choices on his own as opposed to just obeying Eggman's orders. She was holding onto the bird that Gamma was related to, which when it flies into Gamma's face, he just goes "Oh shit, that's me?". Amy acts as a way for Gamma to come to those realizations, because she sort of makes Gamma realize that he can choose things freely, and that he kind of has feelings. Not doing the best of job explaining that, my apologies But the general idea gets across.
Sonic and Tails would've just trashed Gamma like any other Badnik and Knuckles never even SAW Gamma. I guess if you REALLY wanted to, Big could've done something? But I really don't know what, truthfully, and I think having the heart-to-heart with Amy helping Gamma realize that heart helps. I guess you could say if Gamma got trashed, then he would've been fine because the bird would be released, but that'd just make an uninteresting story.
Under ground boss from 8-bit Sonic 2 isn't that hard on GG, and you have an extra 1-up you can get on every try to lose nothing after failing besides maybe a couple of minutes.
Oh boi. Here we go:
Sonic never fully worked in 3D.
Let me explain:
- SA1 and SA2, they tried so hard but ended up relying on Boost Pads and Stage Gimmicks all over. Badniks went from obstacles and difficulty spikes to mindless drones that were put in place so you could homing onto them. Because of all this, Story started to have a much greater focus while before we didn't even had that many "cutscenes".
- Heroes reworked the formula yet again, made it much more similar to older games (2 Acts, Stages were too linear though), but Badniks were now a "Mash homing to move on" gimmick.
- 06 was an attempt of reworking the previous Adventure formula with a screwed up engine.
- Unleashed Night Stages transformed Sonic into God of War. Day stages introduced a Boost Formula, the issue with it is that all stages end up being a corridor on which you do tricks and drift to earn boost so you can "Gotta go fast". Fun? Surely, but it's too different to 2D Sonic.
- Colors, because the reuse of the boost formula, stages had to be divided onto a million parts to pad the game. Too fast for its own good.
- Generations did branched paths, which improved on the Unleashed stages. Some platforms were added but they started doing a clear distinction of Modern and Classic, 2D in generations had too different physics compared to 2D games.
- Forces... Oh god. No, just no.
- Frontiers: Looks alright, gameplay seems cool, but totally not 2D Sonic's gameplay.
So, I'm not saying that other franchises have worked in 3D either, Mario became different too, but it still felt like Mario. Levels in World and Yoshi's Island started to become more about exploration over time, and with 64 it made sense to go that route.
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