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Unpopular Sonic Opinions

Discussion in 'General Sonic Discussion' started by Londinium, Jun 17, 2022.

  1. BlueSkiesAM2

    BlueSkiesAM2

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    I’ve seen a lot of people on the “boss fights in Sonic suck/don’t work” train, and while I agree with most complaints regarding them, I can’t get behind those who want to scrap them entirely (not saying that Xiao feels that way, but there are a few). I genuinely think Sonic CD had some interesting ones. The Collision Chaos, Quartz Quadrant, and Wacky Workbench ones are pretty cool by making you demonstrate skill in a way that can’t easily be cheesed.
     
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  2. As someone who has no attachment to Classic Sonic bosses, I will admit there are few things more satisfying in a Classic Sonic game than shooting straight up the collision chaos boss first try and finishing the thing in seconds.
     
  3. Palas

    Palas

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    Right, and I agree that this is what bosses are supposed to be. But there are a lot of bosses that do that in classic Sonic. Labyrinth Zone, Star Light, Aquatic Ruin, Casino Night, Collision Chaos, Quartz Quadrant, Stardust Speedway are some of the bosses that spring to mind here. It doesn't always happen, but to say bosses aren't part of the core gameplay is on another level.

    Besides
    , there's another usual complaint about bosses in general that seldom applies to Sonic unless you're very good at it. It's something that Tim Rogers put into words as the lack of a "I Get It" button: since the boss is basically a test of a specific skill, the whole ordeal is all about figuring out what you're supposed to do, and once you do that, the actual execution isn't much of a challenge so the second half of a boss fight is nothing but a chore. Due to Sonic's very nature, it's easier to miss the timing of a jump, or jump too low, or aim wrong etc. and still get hit.
     
    Last edited: Sep 4, 2022
  4. I don't think bosses need to be removed, just reworked a bit. Most Sonic bosses (and platforming bosses in general) are more about just hitting an arbitrary number of times until it does as opposed to actually testing your platforming skills. So I don't really blame people for thinking they're kind of naff when the gameplay involving them doesn't really involve the skills you've accumulating.
     
  5. charcoal

    charcoal

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    My favorite bosses in the entire franchise are probably the Unleashed daytime ones. They're autorunners that test your reaction times with the quickstep and boost which is something you've been doing already, so it's a natural fit for the gameplay.

    They're not that hard or anything, but they actually feel like they fit what you've been doing up to that point rather than just suddenly being thrown in an arena to spam the homing attack 3-8 times.

    Unleashed nighttime boss fights are also actually really good although they feel more like traditional Mario game esque bosses than anything suited to the hack n slash + platforming gameplay that the actual levels contain, which is disappointing but they make up for it by just being fun.
     
  6. Zephyr

    Zephyr

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    I would be 100% down for a Sonic game that has a gameplay loop more resembling the Tony Hawk games.
     
  7. Xiao Hayes

    Xiao Hayes

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    People is citing bosses linked to the gameplay or to at least smart tests, and I like those too (I did that of defeating the collision chaos boss on mere seconds). But staying in place to have this loop of "now you hit me, now I hit you", unless it's quick enough, is not for me. For example, the Marble Zone boss isn't really hard or interesting, but the way to defeat it right is still quick enough and less harassing than spamming the ringvincibility; meanwhile, I fight the Mystic Cave boss and I don't give a damn about my rings if that helps finishing it quickly. But I prefer any of those two bosses to dealing with half of the bosses in Mania. I actually liked the new Metal Sonic boss because it involved skill but it didn't involve that much patience or learning curve: spindash from right to left when he leaves an open between arms, jump when he attacks, everything in seconds but with enough time to react.

    But yes, if the boss fight is one more instance of what you could find in any platformer, but more suited to any other platformer than Sonic, I don't want to lose my time with them. Signposts and animal prisons don't mark key moments as well, otherwise I would be ok without any boss besides the final (some skill puzzle instead would probably be cool).
     
  8. Palas

    Palas

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    I wouldn't hate it either, truth be told.
     
  9. charcoal

    charcoal

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    Classic Sonic elitists that constantly butt into discussions talking about how all modern Sonic games are bad because they don't incorporate muh momentum are probably the most annoying members of the entire fanbase, bar none. I see them all the time on Discord and Twitter and it just frustrates me to no end.
     
  10. Totally agree! I want that so much, and do believe that Frontiers may prove to be a step in the right direction.

    Semi-related... and not exactly in line with the topic at hand, sorry... but I have been designing a game that I'll hopefully one day have something to show that isn't on paper. It's a platformer this time, with seemless transitions to other zones/acts on the given island from all cardinal directions, enabling Sonic to endlessly run and tackle the game in a variety of different orders.
     
  11. DigitalDuck

    DigitalDuck

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    I just find it strange that everyone complains about the bestiality, whereas the issue I have is that he was literally dead at the time. Kissing animals is one thing, but dead animals?
     
  12. Forte

    Forte

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    I feel like the problem with the scene is, that the kiss is romantic. If Elise kissed Sonic on the forehead, people wouldn't mind it that much.

    As a kid it felt really awkward to watch this scene.
     
  13. That’s some strong wording there, but I will agree there is no “correct” way to Sonic. It would be better if there was a “correct” or set way to Sonic, giving the brand some identity and fans something to latch on to or go ahead and reject for the sake of their own sanity, but there isn’t.

    And just because a playstyle something came before the others doesn’t automatically make it the “right” way to Sonic.

    Further, while I will acknowledge they possess certain qualities other titles since then lack, it is extremely subjective how much such qualities actually matter.

    What I’m saying basically boils down to this: Who freaking cares if it’s a so called “quality” or “good” a title/formula is if you don’t enjoy playing the darn game?

    Like Mario. I acknowledge that Super Mario Bros 3 is a darn good game. With it’s level of content, variety, scaling difficulty, accessibility, aesthetics, cohesiveness…

    It goes on. But you’ll never see me playing it. Because I value challenge more than these other things, which I find that SMB3 lacks. And I prefer less floaty jumping physics, like those of World.

    I don’t enjoy playing it. So to me, even if I acknowledge it is an “objectively good” game, to me it’s crap.

    Not that any of the Classics are the same formula to me anyway.

    I have had some rather snide comments made about that subject to me here already, and I am not even that active on this forum. On one occasion, I dismissed a person’s idea about how Sonic should play as his opinion, and some other user was going on about how I had lost an opportunity to “gain insight” in how Sonic should be.

    One, there wasn’t anything there I didn’t already know is what that subsection of fans want. Two, that is extremely pretentious, if you ask me. Even moreso than anything I have said. Significantly moreso than anything I have said even.
     
    Last edited: Sep 5, 2022
  14. Everyone wants their own ideal version of Sonic and thinks their vision is better for the series, that's just a normal fandom mindset for a series that has as many different revisions as Sonic.

    It sucks but its up to you if you want to engage with it or not.
     
  15. Zephyr

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    As a classic Sonic elitist who believes that not incorporating muh momentum is (at best) indicative of a significant blind-spot in Sonic Team's own understanding of the original games' "spice", I have to say that one of my unpopular opinions is that "momentum" is just a terribly unhelpful shorthand for summing up what it is that the classic Sonic games do that sets them apart from both the 2D Mario games that precede them and the 3D Sonic games that follow them. Chiefly because said 2D Mario games also have momentum, and are in fact hugely defined by having it. As elitists, we can surely be doing better than this, and use words that mean the things we are intending to convey by using them.

    Something like "slope physics" would be closer to the mark, but, hey, it turns out that 2D Mario games have had slope physics, too, since SMB3. I've also seen "pinball physics" used, but that's too specific, since when Sonic becomes a ball the rolling physics are the same as what you'd see in golf or bowling, as well, rather than simply pinball. "Ball slope physics" maybe? Though, the way Sonic goes up, and then back down, a quarter pipe or half pipe reminds me a lot of skateboarding, which isn't using balls at all, but is still rolling with the use of wheels (rolling being something both balls and wheels (and Sonic) do). "Rolling-on-slopes physics"? Granted, Sonic's not always 'rolling' up and down these half pipes and quarter pipes, and is instead sometimes running up and down them. However, the way he interacts with the slopes while running along them does resemble the way a rolling object would interact with them. And on top of that, while running at full speed his legs become a circle, almost like a wheel, rolling beneath him...
     
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  16. Palas

    Palas

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    There's a better shorthand, which is *gestures broadly* Classic Sonic gameplay. Not very descriptive, but I'm positive the things we elitists miss isn't one single attribute, but a confluence of many smart ideas. I say this because hyperfocusing on the physics overlooks aspects that are just as important, and that made the games work even when the physics weren't perfect. I'm mostly talking about the diffuse life system and about one-action-button philosophy that Naka was reportedly adamant about implementing, and of which ball slope physics/rolling on slopes physics/momentum is a facilitator -- but not the core.
     
  17. DefinitiveDubs

    DefinitiveDubs

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    I mean hey, Disney did it.
    [​IMG]
     
  18. Yeah…

    Lately, I have been engaging with the fandom significantly less than I was, and have been all the happier for it. Lol

    I personally don’t really have any views as how Sonic Team should Sonic. Probably because all the Sonic games I truly love and admire happen to be fangames or something like it.

    And as much as I love a game like SRB2, I don’t think that necessarily has to be the way to go.

    Like, I wouldn’t be mad at all if they took a GT approach or something like Spark 3 for example. Would rather that than what we have seen of Frontiers…
     
  19. Zephyr

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    Well, that's just not a shorthand at all! :V

    I'll agree that the "rolling-on-slopes physics" aren't the only important thing about the gameplay of the classic Sonic games. In addition to the things you listed, there's also the....*ahem*....momentum-based platforming inherited from Super Mario Bros., where jump-length is influenced by your movement speed, jump-height is influenced by how long the jump button is pressed, and you can ricochet off of objects you land on if you're holding the jump button.

    That's right, I think that "rolling-on-slope physics" and "momentum-based platforming" are different components to classic Sonic gameplay. They just happen to meld so well together that they've been conflated in discourse. This is a mistake, because the former has been inherited from billiards-type games (such as golf, bowling, and pinball) and vert skateboarding, while the latter has been inherited from 2D platforming games such as Super Mario Bros. This melding of movement styles is a super-fascinating game design innovation, to me. That it could be elegantly pulled off with one button is also hugely impressive.

    That said, this meld of "rolling-on-slopes physics" and "momentum-based platforming" is definitely more at the core of what keeps me personally coming back to the games, than the (impressively) simple control scheme or the health/lives system. I'd get a lot more enjoyment from different games with different health/life systems and control schemes, which are nonetheless facilitated by the classic Sonic movement physics than I would something that has the classic Sonic health/life system and control scheme but is not facilitated by said physics. I guess the aforementioned hypothetical 'Sonic game with a Tony Hawk-inspired gameplay loop' would be one way to imagine the former, and 'Sonic 4' would be one way to imagine the latter.

    Honestly, I suspect that Sonic 4 is probably chiefly to blame for fandom discourse being as hyperfocused on movement physics as it is.
     
    Last edited: Sep 5, 2022
  20. raphael_fc

    raphael_fc

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    My unpopular opinion on that matter is that most of the highly praised 3D fangames that used momentum/slope physics/rolling/whatever, as great as they are, don't work as proper games. They need a really huge map, that takes only a couple of minutes for the player to reach the goal, and there's barely any challenge because the 3D movement combined with high speed and wide area makes very difficult for the enemies to do anything against the player.
     
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