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Unpopular Sonic Opinions

Discussion in 'General Sonic Discussion' started by Londinium, Jun 17, 2022.

  1. Antheraea

    Antheraea

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    I would argue that even Sonic Team knows this. You'd be forgiven if, solely via exposure to any references or remixes SA2 got in later games, you thought that SA2 consisted entirely of City Escape, Radical Highway, and Shadow's Biolizard fight, because those are almost* entirely all that gets referenced. The tunes from Tails', Knuckles, Eggman's, most of Sonic's, half of Shadows, and 99% of Rouge's** levels might as well not exist. It doesn't feel like anyone out there is clamoring for a new remix of....Aquatic Mine. Or Hidden Base. It's like the game vanishes any time Shadow isn't on screen running through it :V

    SA1 meanwhile has a more varied spread: Speed Highway (Gens), Sand Hill of all things (TSR), Final Egg (also TSR), and Fish Hits also of all things (Frontiers). Alongside the obligatory vocal theme remix. When SA1 gets referenced it's more than like, the same three songs repeatedly.

    For SA2 it's like those two stages and boss fight are all that exist, and that is because, especially musically, SA2 is samey and its vibe is accurately summed up by Escape from the City, Vengeance is Mine (is it true it has like seven remixes in gens now??), and Supporting Me.

    * (yes I know White Jungle got remixed in Forces' DLC. the word of the day is "almost".)
    ** Security Hall gets referenced as Rouge's ultimate in TSR and that is it LMAO
     
    Last edited: Jan 2, 2025
  2. charcoal

    charcoal

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    Radical Highway 1 (3DS)
    Radical Highway 2 (3DS)
    Doom Zone (Shadow) (this song also has three variants with slightly different mixes but its combined into one big song in the OST release)
    Radical Highway 1 (Shadow)
    Radical Highway 2 (Shadow)
    Vengeance is Mine remix bonus track (Shadow OST Release)

    So that's 6 in total. You can technically nudge it up to 7 songs if you include the white space theme as well.
     
    Last edited: Jan 2, 2025
  3. shilz

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    There's this

    But it's understandable if nobody is aware of/remembers it. They basically kept it solely to this video on this channel and that's it.
     
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  4. Iko MattOrr

    Iko MattOrr

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    I wouldn't call SA2's soundtrack "samey".
    It's more focused, has a more distinct identity, not unlike Sonic Rush's.
    Sonic Adventure 1 has a lot of good songs but sometimes they are so random, they could come from different games (and in some cases they do, like those tracks from Flicky's Island).

    Anyway there are a couple of other remixes-references, the Chao Race music in the menu of Sonic Advance 3 and... Isn't Silent Forest a big reference to Rouge's Dry Lagoon, even though it's not directly a proper remix?
     
  5. Deep Dive Devin

    Deep Dive Devin

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    Silent Forest isn't a "reference" to any Rouge stage in anything other than being a jazz piece. They don't even really sound that much alike.
     
  6. Wraith

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    Sonic Adventure 2 has about as much variety with it's hip-hop, Dnb and Bassa-nova sounds. It's just that none of those are really considered real genres of music among the demographics that make and play Sonic games compared to the cheesy pop-rock, jazz and world music SA1 goes for. That's also the reason only the rock songs get salvaged most of the time. Radical Highway is more in the Sonic Sound Team's wheelhouse than Pumpkin Hill(though it's not like they never tried.)

    Even when they brought back Supporting Me in Shadow Generations, they saw fit to rework it into a rock track, like they do a lot of the Shadow era stuff, because they're more confident with that than the original sound. The idea that the game doesn't have variety is, in itself, placebo caused by the Sonic community not having that varied of a palate.
     
    Last edited: Jan 3, 2025
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  7. I guess it only really counts as 'samey' per character...

    But you're not really playing each character repeatedly, you're playing multiple characters in a row...most of the time and that variety of characters is the type of variety of music you'd expect in a Sonic game.
     
  8. Wraith

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    Yeah thinking it over I'd actually argue that the game has more variety than most Sonic games, which is impressive since the game aesthetically is not that varied-they use the same 6 biomes and a lot of assets across 30 stages. They probably could have done a bit less here and gotten away with it, if anything. It's great that they did more.
     
  9. BlackHole

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    I think Sonic the Hedgehog (Archie Comics)'s Nu252 is better than Sonic the Hedgehog (IDW).

    I think this due to the fact the Nu252 was able to actually be an adaptation, introducing new elements and working them into their version of a games events, or using older elements to great effect, like Mighty's presence and assistance in handling the Werehog, G.U.N. actually helping out where they can, the use of Red Rings, a collectable in the games yet they turned it into a powerup for one of the characters, characters from older media like Breezie and the S.S.S.S.S. Squad, etc.

    It just felt like fun, like the writing team were just writing a big love-letter to the series and enjoying everything the franchise has given us.

    Sonic the Hedgehog (IDW)
    is bogged down by the games and mandates: Mighty can't appear due to being a classic character, G.U.N. aren't present at all, hell Humans just seem to have disappeared from the world despite one story arc being set over Central City. I assume Flynn is continuing his "two cities can share a name, Humans and Anthros each have their own Central City", but that'll be confusing if the Human Central City pops up unless they clarify the change. Rings can't appear, money isn't allowed, and because it's set in the game's world, no older media is allowed there, and they can't adapt the games since the games are the story.

    It just feels stagnant, like the comics now have to wait for the games to make progress before they can. They're trying to keep the spark there with Tangle, Whisper, Surge, Kitsunami, etc, but I'm just not feeling it like I did with the Nu252.

    To be clear, none of that has anything to do with Flynn or any of the other writers, they're just writing the things with what they got. I may have my issues with some of the things they write (see: any post of mine discussing Sonic Origins), but SEGA are the ones with the creative control.

    It may also be that I enjoy when comics aren't beholden to the games, since Sonic the Comic was similar to the Nu252: they adapted the games, but to their world. They tied the alien Drakon Empire to various adaptations, including directly tying them to the Sonic Adventure plot and turning Chaos from a mutated Chao to a mutated Drakon (which is fitting, since it turned out Chao were aliens as well... score another one for Sonic the Comic's predictions!)

    An analogy might be that the Nu252 and Sonic the Comic are like driving a car: it can divert off the planned route if you want to go see something interesting and is in constant motion, while Sonic the Hedgehog (IDW) is like riding a bus: you need to wait for the bus to get anywhere, and it's on the bus' schedule and route, it won't be diverted elsewhere, so no interesting sight for you.
     
  10. Antheraea

    Antheraea

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    IMO it's more that each character has a specific genre instead of each level having unique music (cannot even say that each level has a specific genre in SA1 because you have levels like Red Mountain and Icecap that totally vary between acts). This is noticeable enough that I've come across speculation that Sky Rail was originally a Sonic level because its level music is so different from the rest of Shadow's levels. Which means you have six "sounds" that the game itself rarely deviates from, which makes it samey.

    I would also argue that while the game format in which you hear the OST (as opposed to the OST release itself)* is better, I don't think it fixes it, because all of the characters' level themes generally have the exact same vibe to them regardless of locale. You could swap all of Eggman's tracks (except for Lost Colony lol) between levels and I'm not entirely sure anyone would notice. You could probably do that with all of Knuckles' tracks too if the rapper didn't name-drop the level in every track :V

    Additionally, they had absolutely no problems putting dnb, tons of it (:thumbsup:) in later games, and also putting the guy who did Knuckles' SA2 tracks in charge of the tunes of one of their biggest titles. Yes, Ohtani did all of the SA2 Knuckles tracks and it is one of my favorite factoids


    * it's like how I think the US Sonic CD OST is a bad OST for the game itself, but it's fine music to listen to completely divorced from it just plain not fitting with a full quarter of the games' levels and most of the game's level vibes
     
  11. Pipoza

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    What would be the "popular opinion" on Sonic Advance 2 currently?

    I remember it not being very positively viewed around here, but I have a soft spot for it despite the issues I have with it. It was the Sonic game that initially got me into the series.

    It's kind of "half" of a good game because I absolutely think the level design takes a nosedive at the half-way point (and some would argue not even that because of the Straight Line Zone syndrome), but I played the crap out of those first four zones and loved perfecting them via the trick system.

    Sky Canyon 100% sucks, but I'll defend the bosses and Techno Base, at least.

    It's so frustrating because I especially felt the issues on my recent revisit, but I still really enjoyed the game despite of them, and even more especially compared to Advance 1, which I thought was just a solid game all the way through.

    I really love Advance 2's sprite work and music, too. They're wonderfully animated and scored games.

    Love, love Music Plant.

    I put Advance 3 down at Ocean Base, though. The level design just was not just "not good" there, it was awful from level 1. I could not look past it there and that was extra frustrating because I really like the buddy system in that game in terms of foundational gameplay systems.

    So, my Advance series unpopular opinions might be that I don't like Advance 3 that much and I defend Advance 2?
     
  12. I’ve seen things shift towards Advance 3 being more positively received, 2 being called crappy due to every level being basically the same layout with different theming (a huge downward slope), and then 1 retaining its pretty good reception.

    I remember the general consensus being 1 > 2 > 3, but I feel like it’s more like 1 >= 3 >>> 2 now, with 3 pulling ahead of 1 occasionally. I used to hate 3 (I’d boot it up on an emulator and immediately switch it off after getting crushed by that one stupid block in Route 99) but I listened to some YouTubers’ thoughts and gave it another chance. It’s grown on me and it’s a bit more elaborate and is something I’m less familiar with than Advance 1 so I’m more inclined to play it.

    I’d probably still say 1 is a more solid package, just a bit less exciting/fun for me personally. I also still enjoy 2 though. It’s incredibly, incredibly stylishly made. I wish the Advance series had a game on the scale of 3&K in terms of level design quality, length, and narrative. Or I wish that Rush used 2D sprites like you see in the credits. Blaze’s looks so good.
     
    Last edited: Jan 7, 2025
  13. Pipoza

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    Ah, interesting.

    I stopped at Ocean Base on my revisit, but I am planning to eventually go back to Advance 3. I at least want to finish it to have a fully informed opinion.

    I very much second the sentiment of wanting Rush to have stuck with 2D because in my eyes sprites have always looked better than lower-poly/early 3D models, especially if they're really well animated like Advance's are.

    There is room for that aesthetic, of course, but at the very least I think Rush's 3D doesn't look very good and particularly clashes with the 2D elements. (The backgrounds are 2D, right?)

    But my love for the first two Advance titles is at least the one driving force to eventually get to Superstars because that gives me massive Advance spiritual successor vibes, down to seemingly having a specific issue that impacts a generally solid game pretty strongly (which in Superstars' case are the bosses, people say they aren't fun and most of them do not look fun).
     
  14. Iko MattOrr

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    I was having a discussion about Classic Sonic vs (2D) Modern Sonic on Sonic Stadium, and I came up with this:


    People may disagree with it, but in my opinion this is the evolution of 2D Sonic. It may be a bit more complex than this, with little bits of innovation coming from other games that aren't listed here, but I wanted to make it simple.

    This does not mean that Rush's gameplay is better than what came before, as well as Encore Mode being better than Advance 3's partner system. It just means that there has been experimentation and a will to introduce new ideas on top of existing concepts.

    I find it annoying how games like Mania and Superstars pretend that anything from 3&K onward never existed, beside referencing (or copying?) a couple of gimmicks here and there. An example is how they re-introduced Amy as a playable character but they made it sure to make her completely different than in Advance 1, not even referencing one of her moves, or at least the spring enhancement thing that was iconic to her.

    Regarding Advance 2:

    Advance 2 is my favorite Sonic game along with Sonic 1 8-bit. I know, I have weird tastes.

    Regardless, I can see the flaws of Advance 2. I don't think that the level design takes a nosedive, there are nice sections in the late levels too, Egg Utopia has a few moments where it asks you to do platforming and physics based actions. The problem is that the level design is too much focused on linearity with the purpose of showing you that Boost Mode as much as it can. In my opinion the problem is that every level has a similar layout and, like the bossfights, they become repetitive after a while. Originally, I used to like the game up until Sky Canyon, then get bored at Techno Base and quitting. Now I've learned to enjoy those final zones as well, the reason why I didn't like them was burnout more than anything.

    I don't think that the level design has many other problems other than that... there are unfair spots and bottomless pits, but I think that people overexaggerate those issues, it's not like, say, Sonic 2, 3 and CD didn't have their unfair traps and enemy placement problems too. Sky Canyon has a couple of "barrel of doom" moments that are just bad designed, but those are just a couple, I think.

    I remember that decades ago I did read an article about Advance 2 on an Italian Nintendo magazine (NRU, Nintendo Rivista Ufficiale), I was young and not very experienced with the series, so I don't remember much. but there was someone having an interview about it, saying that it was inspired by Sonic 3 and how the levels in that game felt very open and free. I suppose that Sonic Advance 2 takes most of its inspiration from levels like Hydrocity Act 2 and Ice Cap Act 2, the problem is that ALL the levels of the game have that style.

    So in my opinion Advance 2's problem is mostly in its variety, not quality.

    The design itself is kind of good for what it is. Even though the levels are very linear, they still have recognizable structures and if you play them a bunch of times, you can build a vague mental map of them, something that's much harder in many other games, including Advance 3.
    Despite the bottomless pits problem, the game still uses a different background with tiles to advise you that there's a pit, in a similar way as the death signs in the modern games but integrated in the environment of the zone (there are a few exceptions where the game tricks you though).

    Overall, I think that most fans underestimate the massive legacy that the Advance games have in the series, and Advance 2 specifically, being the prototype of Sonic Rush and the first step in the direction that eventually generated the boost gameplay of the 3D games.
    Advance 1 introduced 2D grinding and a secondary action button (attack), Advance 2 introduced new movement options (tricks, flight cancel, boost mode) and a new approach to the gameplay based on speedrunning, and Advance 3 went crazy with the interactions with other characters, setting the base for those Generations missions were you use the other characters' abilities to navigate the levels.
    And visually, those sprites are incredibly iconic and represent an era of Sonic, especially due to all those flash sprite animations on the web back in the 2000s.

    There's a lot yet to be explored in those games, I hope that some day they will get the attention they deserve.
     
    Last edited: Jan 7, 2025
  15. Pipoza

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    Oh right, this talk actually reminded me that Advance 2 actually wasn't my first Sonic game.

    It was the PC version of Sonic 3, but 6-year-old me was terrified of being crushed in Hydrocity Zone, so I wasn't able to get past it because I always got so nervous when I got to it and eventually just gave up.

    The reason I defaulted to Advance 2 was because I got back into the series a few years later through Ultimate Flash Sonic on Newgrounds and from there got into the Advance series and in turn got back into the classic series. (This time I got stuck in Carnival Night lol, I think I actually didn't beat the Classics for a very long time.)

    But what people did with the Advance sprites back in the 2000s was awesome. Add those from Sonic Battle into the mix, too.

    How nostalgic.
     
  16. Deep Dive Devin

    Deep Dive Devin

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    I think the criticism that Advance 3 has worse level design than Advance 2 isn't necessarily incorrect, but they have different kinds of problems, and I think the structure of Advance 3 edges 2 out. Besides the bosses being nigh-universally less-frustrating (ironically the worst boss in 3 is the Twinkle Snow autoscroller, which is like every boss in 2), 3's hub worlds mean that you can switch to a different act if one of them is giving you shit, and allows you to grind for lives in the mini-game challenges. But more than that, Advance 2's system was one where a gameover always set you back to the start of the first act of a zone, so with a level as dogshit as Sky Canyon and it's [accidentally-placed second hand hitbox that one-hit kills you], getting sent back to a terrible first stage of a terrible zone is way more frustrating than an individual act of 3 not being that good. I hate that for some reason, Ocean Base, Cyber Track and Chaos Angel all have stages where you have to babysit a moving platform. But at least if I fail at those stages, I'm not gonna have to redo a different stage at some point to try again. This is also why Altitude Limit is Fucking Awful in Rush 1, though that game has better design overall (I'm still shocked to my core that both Loren AND Bruce defended Altitude Limit though, honestly). Also, Advance 3 generally avoids the "get this do-or-die air trick off or wait 20 seconds falling into the deepest pit ever before actually hitting a death barrier" design issue from 2. Crushing sucks, but at least it's something I know is there, and can anticipate for a second or even slow down to avoid.

    Still, Advance 1 has Souped-Up and Advance 2 has Adv2SP, so hopefully Advance 3 can get a "frustration patches" mod for those issues in the near future.
     
  17. Zephyr

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    I like Advance 2. Or, at least, when I've memorized the levels enough to not die, I like Advance 2. Straight Line Zone Acts 1-14 feel good as hell when you're managing to thread that needle. Going back and trying to re-learn the levels after a very long time away is frustrating as fuck, though.

    But at least with 2 I sometimes go back and try to re-learn it. I don't think I've had an ounce of interest in trying to go back and replay Advance 3 since I beat it as a kid nearly 20 years ago. Maybe I'd like it more a second go around, but the fact that I couldn't care less is damning enough for me at the moment.
     
  18. Palas

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    So what is the popular opinion on Advance 2 bosses nowadays? Because I think they fucking rule, like I'd get that over every single boss fight philosophy we have had ever since.

    (I'd be remiss not to the mention it's about the only thing I like about Sonic Advance 2 though)
     
  19. Iko MattOrr

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    I have to disagree here...
    Toy Kingdom's boss which is probably inspired by that potted ghost boss in Yoshi's Island, is annoying as heck because at some point if you are hit you will likely bounce into the death pit at the edge of the arena;
    Ocean Base's boss can crush you and gives you very little time to realize if it's opening the weak spot or is crushing;
    Twinkle Snow's is glitchy and you may end in a place where even if you jump right, you have no other places to go other than die at the bottom of the screen.
    Cyber Track's boss is glitchy and RNG too.

    I think it depends on the team of characters too, some can cheese the bosses, but if we take broken combinations into account, then Advance 2's bosses are a breeze because you can cheese them with Cheese (intended).

    From my experience, most of the frustration in Advance 2's bosses comes from these factors:

    - The screen: when you are left behind the boss can go offscreen, and you can't see the attacks coming.
    - The terrain: it affects your jumps, as it should, but sometimes it prevents you from jumping over an explosion.
    - Glitchy collisions.
    - Actual RNG: mostly just Egg-go-Round, due to RNG, it is the worst boss in the game - no Egg Saucer is fun once you get good.

    Some bosses are kind of hard, but totally fair if we exclude the problems in this list. I think they can potentially be fixed with patches, a wider screen or a little redesign. Something like Twinkle Snow's boss can't be fixed, it's just annoying on a conceptual level.
     
  20. Deep Dive Devin

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    Nah. The whole philosophy of Advance 2's runner bosses is just a bad idea, at it's most functional it's giving you a platform to stop and aim your attacks from, which means that at best it's basically just an annoying preamble that means you never get to keep your rings. I didn't even know Ocean Base's foot thing was a crusher because I've never been hit by it or seen anyone else get hit by it. It that really is true, then I don't think it's as much a problem as you're saying because uh...no, it's slow as hell and easy to dodge. Same deal with Toy Kingdom, just hit the boss when you can and stay on the left side and nothing can touch you. I have a higher tolerance for waiting around, maybe, but taking all the precision of Sonic's movement and throwing it out the window is just a terrible terrible compromise.