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Unpopular Sonic Opinions

Discussion in 'General Sonic Discussion' started by Londinium, Jun 17, 2022.

  1. Palas

    Palas

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    Oh my God anything but this. I was on board until this part. Why him.

    If anything, I'd argue the themes are a lot more important to each intentionally discrete era than any character. The Chaos Emeralds and their story, for example, bring a lot about unlimited power/mystic brings/things you shouldn't touch/past x future themes thay seem especially irrelevant in the boost games (they're there out of... inertia, mostly), but they are extremely important in the Adventure games (plus Sonic Battle!).
     
  2. Its occurred to me that Mighty is to Classic fans what Shadow is to Modern fans. Maybe its the red/black color scheme :P


    I got an unpopular opinion; Tails and Knuckles' feel redundant as playable characters in the Classics because the level design is not altered enough to accommodate them. On subsequent playthroughs I mostly just stick with Sonic since he has the most overall content and the levels are clearly designed around him.
     
  3. Josh

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    Depends on which classics we're talking about. Obviously 1, 2, and CD predate characters having different abilities, though I still find Tails' flight super-useful as both an easy mode and to help with exploration, especially in CD!

    But 3&K is where the concept debuted, and I think its level design has plenty of accommodations for different characters. I was just playing Origins earlier, and I noticed how as Sonic, Marble Garden is easily my least-liked stage in the original Sonic 3, but as Tails, I enjoy it a so much more. That's because its vertical design offers plenty of chances for him to have his own specific paths. And while that's probably his most robust stage, I can think of unique areas/paths for Tails and Knuckles in pretty much every zone.

    Mania has some of that too, but it doesn't do it nearly as often or with as much specificity, which is one of the only real criticisms I have about it, because Mirage Saloon Act 1 as Knuckles really shines. And the Advance games (at least 1 and 2, 3's its own beast) are exceptionally lousy at it... with them, like you said, I always wind up just playing everyone like Sonic.
     
  4. Palas

    Palas

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    How? One is a character that appeared as the main rival in one of the most successful games in the franchise, was featured accordingly in the anime and even has a game of his own. The other is some guy.

    Yeah I feel like 3&K is the only game that should be judged for that, but I feel like we could have exclusive zones or a different boss at least. Marble Garden is a lot better with Tails like @Josh mentioned though, and I love how much harder Sandopolis is with Knuckles (which is... probably unpopular).
     
  5. Should be noted, I was speaking mainly about 3&K. Tails is fine as easy mode, but I prefer actually playing my games...most of the time. There are a few instances of level design for them, its just far and few in between.


    I'm reaching a bit here I admit, but I notice the way people used to talk about cool and awesome Mighty was kind of reflects how people literally do the same for Shadow. Wasn't really talking about their in-game roles but their fandom reactions.


    Mighty has that mystery allure I guess. Nobody knew anything about him so of course people just ran wild with their imaginations and speculations, which evolved into current reputation.
     
  6. BadBehavior

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    We're long overdue for a game that does to the adventures what Mania did for the classics. Just let fans do that while Kishimoto & co can keep milking the boost formula (until they inevitably ruin it again)
     
  7. Josh

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    Maybe this is an unpopular opinion in some circles too, but: The boost style is, inherently, an evolution of Sonic Adventure 2's speed stages. While SA1 was a step in that direction, SA2 was the point where the 3D series fully broke away from the classics. A game that "does to the adventures what Mania did for the classics" wouldn't make sense to me unless it was specifically focused on SA1. And that would just be a game that played more like a 3D version of a 16-bit Sonic game.

    To quote Iizuka himself from a 2001 interview, talking about SA2:
    upload_2022-7-9_15-43-21.png

    Emphasizing speed and player execution over momentum physics and exploration. That's the philosophy underlying SA2's design, and Unleashed (which started life as Sonic Adventure 3) was a refinement of it.
     
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  8. It became increasingly obvious over time that this action based focus is what Sonic Team have been moving towards for a while. And I don't have much of a problem with that despite my misgivings I laid out before.

    Because I liked SA2 and Unleashed, because it felt rewarding to master those stages despite how linear they were. Earning an A/S rank after practicing is a treat.

    But after Colors, they decided that you can just get S Ranks for doing literally the bare minimum. Maybe not so much in Colors but definitely in Generations.


    But you get the idea.
     
  9. Think I just remembered another one.

    In a game with level design like Generations, it is always obvious what the "correct" path is. Generally, if you have to do something to get on it that requires any level of interaction as you're speeding along, it is a faster path.

    I think some have expressed they don't like this. One argument I have seen is that this actually sacrifices a bit of depth as it takes away from having to consider what is on all paths so as to consciously plan which paths to take to attain an s rank or better time accordingly...

    Maybe I am just lazy, but I don't have real interest in that. And focus on this for speedrunning is part of why I have little interest in seriously attempting to speedrun the Classics. (though I did in the old CD demo on mobile where you needed to in order to unlock more levels) A route that I could waste a lot of time trying to optimize I could later come to realize is crap.

    That's just one part of it, though. Laziness. But it's not the main thing. I think not making this clear and obvious leads to less easily attainable satisfaction and engagement. Harder to find the correct rhythm and timing of a level that makes it actually satisfying to play, as I don't find most Sonic games very interesting to play before that level, as opposed to something like Megaman which is going to be a fun challenge regardless.

    In a similar vein, I am not keen on the ranking system. Not because I don't like attaining them, because nailing the run needed to do so is geerally fun, but more because I never know exactly how much faster or how many more points I need in order to attain the ranking I want.

    It's just tedious. At one point in SA2, (I should finish that game sometime) I decided I'd just restart whenever I missed literally anything because I did not care for the possibility of reaching the end to find out I didn't have enough points, pushing me to probably do more than what was really required in a lot of cases and spend more time on a stage than I needed to...

    ...In fact, I am exactly sure of that because sometimes I'd take a glance at a video on Youtube and have moments like "Wait, I didn't have to do that?"
     
    Last edited: Jul 9, 2022
  10. This may not be all that unpopular of an opinion, but having an expanded playable roster is unnecessary without zones/routes being designed with every character-specific ability in mind. Palette/sprite swaps of Sonic, or anyone, is also useless. Thankfully in this here age of Mania the only Sonic clone, Mighty, still had a unique ability.

    I would like future entries, or perhaps Origins via dlc, to feature a modestly expanded roster. I feel like my adoration of Amy is firmly established and documented here, so I of course want her to finally return in both the classic and modern series'. Advance and Adventure nailed her play style right out the gate, but there's probably room for minor improvements. She certainly ain't for everyone with her lack of speed, but her Pico-Pico Hammer is perfectly tailored for methodical exploration... and for cheesing boss battles. I'd like to see the return of select members of the Chaotix, as well as debuts for Fang, Bean, Bark, and perhaps even Honey. Unfortunately, Bark could easily end up as a Knuckles clone but slower, and Honey is something of a wild card. Vector could fall victim to clone syndrome too, with elements of Amy and Knux. Espio is golden though, with his own twist on the spindash, climbing proficiency, and perhaps a wholly original invisibility mechanic. Charmy is a throwaway. Speaking of throwing... Bean would naturally toss bombs. Finally, Fang could be the first ranged character. Amy and Espio offer the most utility imho.

    Not sure if I've seen this mentioned ever, but cosmetic swaps could be fun so long as they don't occupy their own character slot. So like, Metal Sonic would just be an alternate costume for Sonic, as could Sanic and Silver Sonic. Tails doll for Tails, Metal Knux for Knuckles, and perhaps Honey for Amy. Mecha Sonic is sadly too different in size from Sonic. If fans of Charmy happen to actually exist, then he could be a swap of Tails.

    For 3D entries, I only care to see Amy, Blaze, and Big return. I'd love to have Tikal as a costume for Knuckles as well. I have no love for Rouge, Shadow, or the robots. Silver is just eh, but he and Shadow could be swaps for Sonic if the demand is there. I think the Chaotix, SegaSonic, and Fighters casts should all be exclusive to classic-inspired entries. Honestly, other than the core trio, only Amy and Metal should hop across timelines/dimensions. Should the 3D entries finally re-implement other playable dudes, it is imperative that SA and not SA2 through Forces serve as the foundation. Being forced to cycle through play styles was one of SA2 major offenses. No hubs was another. Everyone playable has got to factor in to the story somehow, but they don't all need to be integral. I don't ever want to hear groans over Big again, therefore I'd have his campaign be entirely optional. Hell, I wouldn't mind if you only had to clear Sonic's campaign to get through the whole story. All others would just expand the story and offer different perspectives on events.

    One last bit for now: Sonic stories ought to be on the lighter side of things, just with dark undertones.
     
  11. Endgame

    Endgame

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    Speaking of whom (see the above post), here's another one...

    I don't know whether, whenever he's mentioned, it's through some hidden sarcasm - or if it's genuine - but I have never been bothered about (nor understand the obsession over) Big the Cat. He's like the epitome of what shouldn't be in a Sonic game.

    It's about as much of a contrast as racing is to fishing (which the latter should have never been in a Sonic game).



    I've got one more to go [that I can think of] which may probably be the most unpopular opinion of all-time (it's not hating Sonic & co. BTW, but on a separate track altogether; and it's also been mentioned on here before, but as a positive remark).
     
    Last edited: Jul 9, 2022
  12. While I don't worship him as much as most people, I have come around to Big. He's really unlike any other Sonic character, which helps him standout in a sea of tryhard tough guys who get all of the attention. (And I say that as someone who loves those tryhard tough guys). Big just wants to live his life and doesn't really care about the whole big epic adventures the rest of the cast go on.

    Its great.
     
  13. jubbalub

    jubbalub

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    Wish I could like this as much as other people seem to but this just does not do it for me. It's really busy, instruments are really harsh, the volume mixing is all over the place. Ice Cap Zone is okay, but this just blows.
     
  14. Oddity

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    Amy still needs a lot of work as a character. As of now, there’s not much that makes her stand out in a cast of boy geniuses and ninja detectives and mad scientists and rogue spies and killer robots and-

    Uh, anyways, one way to possibly give her a bigger role in the universe is to expand on the mystical side of her character (I.e. tarot cards), as it isn’t very unique to any other game character yet.

    As annoying as her old characterization was, getting rid of the obsessive crush, alone, isn’t enough to say she’s a good character now.
     
  15. shilz

    shilz

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    I think the Drop Dash is the most useless move they could've come up with for Sonic to try and give him a move to do in the air to match Tails and Knuckles. Not only does it neglect why you would want to give Sonic an air move in the first place by only activating once Sonic hits a floor, it leaves Sonic nearly zero options for movement in the air. Maybe the shields are supposed to function this way - but they're way too easy to lose, if 2 of the shields evaporate entirely as soon as you touch a drop of water and the advised way to play the game is "Just tank hits bro", so it's all up to extreme chance. Since Mania's levels were already gauntlets, they should have just given sonic either a non-screen nuke version of the Hyper attack, or the Air Dash from the Sonic Boom 3ds games and give the shields better overall qualities.


    I guess this makes 2 in 1 post because I've seen so many people act like the obsession was so awful and that what Sonic Boom did to her by removing it (outside of the show which just made it creepy by downplaying it for no reason) is the greatest decision ever, when I thought it was funnier as it was, particularly in X, while it also provided a much more interesting contrast in their personalities. Sonic refuses to be held down, while Amy holds herself down (in a sense) to the chase. When Sonic became outwardly heroic because of Boom and Amy ALSO became more outwardly heroic because of Boom and they both were turned into sitcom buddies it just makes her "Sonic... but GIRL?!?!" just as Shadow was turned into "Sonic... but AMBIGIOUSLY BAD?!" because he refuses to be outwardly heroic or get his own sitcom buddies.

    Also feels like they did it mostly just to further distance themselves from the misconception that she's the "damsel in distress" trope when she's been a subversion in some way any time she *was* someone in need of being rescued. First time it was mostly played straight but with the twist that it an atypical relationship to what you'd normally expect. Second time playing it up until the point that she frees herself with her own compassion alone.

    All this to say she's more individual because she don't need no Sonic to save her, when in reality they made her less of an individual and a part of the super heroic Team Sonic hivemind. The only really decent change brought alongside this was the new voice direction.
     
  16. Individuality doesn't mean much if fans just don't like the character in question.
     
  17. Oddity

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    Not sure what this comment is supposed to mean. Let’s say “fans” don’t like “the character in question” for lack of individuality. So you’re saying that they still wouldn’t like the character even if it was eventually given individuality? Doesn’t that defeat the purpose of criticism?
     
  18. DefinitiveDubs

    DefinitiveDubs

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    Ranking systems suck.

    They're unfriendly for new players, or casual players, who are only looking to beat the game and finish the story. Encouraging a player to get better is important, but that should be done by rewarding more skillful play, not punishing a playstyle that maybe isn't so skillful but still gets the job done. I know that as a child, I certainly was annoyed and resentful of games that, on a successful run of a Sonic level, rewarded me with a letter grade as if we're in school and Sonic said some PG equivalent of "Wow that was shit". Unleashed is the worst offender, with an E rank openly mocking the player. The idea that this should be encouraging me to get better is laughable, and it's the kind of logic I'd expect from someone who thinks bullying builds character in children. Anything that inspires a reaction of "Hey fuck you, I tried" maybe shouldn't be in a game aimed at young children.

    In addition, ranks are meaningless unless you get the best. What the hell is the point of an E-B rank? To let you know how close you got? There's no reward for "almost". As my dad used to say, "close" only counts in horseshoes. I understand that seeing yourself get a little farther and a little better each time has a certain appeal, but if the player knows that they need a certain score or a certain time to attain an A/S rank, then it doesn't matter how much lower you are than that, it's all the same: not enough, try again. Sonic doesn't tell you the score required for an A/S rank, and I don't see why it wouldn't or how that enhances the game.

    This is why I'd prefer a rank system that works like Super Meat Boy. In that game, there's only one rank: an A+. You get it by mastering the stage and playing it as fast as is reasonable. If you don't get an A+, you simply don't get anything, but the game lets you know what you need to do to obtain it. It creates a positive feedback loop where the more A+ ranks you get, the more content you unlock (hard mode) and that alone is an incentive for the player to improve. However, casual players don't need to feel like they're missing out or being judged for simply wanting to see the game's ending, because there isn't a big letter that flashes in their face with a sign that says "lol git gud scrub".
     
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  19. DigitalDuck

    DigitalDuck

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    I agree with most of what you said, but the E rank in Unleashed is fucking hilarious and should stay.
     
  20. It means that even if Amy had more unique traits before (which I do agree with btw) the bottom line is that her gimmick of being hopelessly in love with Sonic didn't exactly endear her to many people.

    Its not too surprising her modern character downplaying that aspect led to better reception for her overall, even if it came at the cost of arguably making her a more generic action hero character.