On the flip side: If they hadn't sidelined him for a good while, nobody would've had the chance to miss him because they'd be too busy complaining about him being there. Absence makes the heart grow etc etc. And I'm not saying it's not working. But going on about "trying to appeal to people who haven't touched this franchise in 30 years" when they're now pandering just as hard with a character who was at his most prominent 20 years ago, I mean... from my perspective, Shadow is one of the "old favorites." He debuted before I was even born! Between this and Frontiers, we're kind of just seeing a continuation of the status quo with the nostalgic spotlight flipped forward a few years, right? "Hey mid-late 20-somethings with newly disposable income, your favorite character Classic Sonic Shadow the Hedgehog is finally back, and the series will once again cater to the elements YOU remember from your childhood!" I guess that's a pretty cynical read. I know that's not how it feels to you old-school Adventure fans. But I'm sure that's not how it felt for older-school classic fans, either. I don't know. People are allowed to not be excited about the "year of Shadow" and to say as much, same as people are allowed to celebrate it and feel validated by it. Personally, as someone who loved most of the 2010s stuff, this feels like a reversion, and I don't think it's really for me. But either way, you guys taking shots at Overlord like his disinterest is a personal attack just kind of rubs me the wrong way.
If Overlord can once again remind everyone how annoyed he is with Shadow and SA2's existence then Adventure fans can in-turn express their relief that the Classic Sonic pandering is being put aside. If it's all well and good that Classic fans be nostalgia-pandered to then it really is about time that Shadow fans got their due. I think it's fair to be scrutinous over someone being so brazenly negative.
And I've never understood why negative opinions deserve more scrutiny than positive ones, personally.
They don't. A negative opinion does deserve more scrutiny though when it's insisted over and over with no changes or added insight. Or y'know at least it's tempting to press about it.
I guess I could just ignore Overlord saying the same thing about Shadow over and over again but I think that would be defeating the purpose of having a forum.
You can ask him to explain what he means or just ignore him if you find it upsetting, I just think the route you took(sacking a bunch of fandom baggage that no one really brought up beforehand just to complain about a hypothetical argument no one made yet) to be strange
SA2 in general, not just Shadow, put the nail in the coffin for a potential return to the "classic" side of thing. Funnily enough, they tried to "course-correct" with Heroes and Sonic Advance for their multi-platform debut. People (like me) didn't know what happened and were questioning the direction the series was heading. Another tonal shift occurred, voice actors kept changing, the slippery controls ... It was a lot at once. But imagine where we'd be if we had gotten these guys instead of Rouge and Shadow: Fascinating.
I've asked him what he meant by "massive shift in the franchise", with all the obvious outliers that existed around ShTH's time. And especially with how hard that mid-2000s 'edgy Shadow era' had been swept under the rug until recently. How fans used to react to Shadow in 2010 vs how they react now is relevant here, especially with Overlord feeling the need to steer the conversation towards the year of Shadow in a discussion about Classic Sonic having a voice in the first place.
Like I said, I think this "muh Classic and Modern" debate is kind stupid overall. The main takeaway I said was... why would you downplay a part of your franchise that people liked because of a couple of loud voices? That's my point; even if you hated Shadow with every fiber of your being, you can see for yourself how popular he is (and the same applies for Classic since you like using that analogy). Why wouldn't you use him is my question here. Nobody balks at seeing Tails, Knuckles, or Amy all of the time. But Shadow is the breaking point? It's the literal definition of "cutting your nose off to spite your face"
The real solution is to make 06 2 and make it so hilariously awful that we all unite in how terrible it is. Overlords been saying for nearly 20 years he doesn’t like shadow and his conviction has never wavered, going after him isn’t going to change his opinion lol. Just enjoy what you like and don’t let it bother you.
And maybe now the conversation can shift away from me. Christ, what I posted in the thread I'd not specifically said before (the part about 2024 being over). And yes, this is now me asking as a mod - this isn't the "hate on Overlord" thread.
Those other mods have had it too good for too long... uhh lukewarm take, the classics momentum/pinball physics are great but and a big part of what makess those games so great, but I think they are far from necessary even for 2d ssonic games. As long as the games can achieve a good flow state, then i think you can make most anything work. Sega just seems to struggle at making a good flow state, 3d or otherwise
This opinion hurts my soul. They all have "flow states" to the point some of them almost play like rhythm games. (Lack of depth) The classic trilogy had it so you can traverse complex and diverse levels without being forced into a flow state, which is pretty much ideal.
So to clarify i dont necessarily mean just nonstop moving or variety, I mostly mean just developing an engaging moveset that gives you options but keeps the pace high. The classics do this, in fact i'd say their physics system is what enables their own sort of flow state, where you get into the groove of a level and can flow through it with little trouble when you've gotten the hang of it. The mechanics of the game need to compliment the level design and character controller, it doesnt need to be a game that plays itself or god forbid a rhythm game. Its why I like sa2's sonic levels more than sa1's, as getting good at that games levels is much more *satisfying* than sa1, with tricks to perform as you speed through them or split second decisions to choose which path is best for your run, and the philosophy that ultimately lead to unleashed
What did you mean then by "far from necessary"? I don't need a Sonic Boom, but better. Or a Super Meat Boy like Sonic game. I always liked the minimalistic approach to Sonic's moveset and think it should stay that way. It's hard to say how such a game that ups the ante in terms of mobility and speed would turn out in the end. It could end up being too hectic and buggy. A broken mess where the camera constantly spazzes out. Then again, what exactly hindered them from simply using the characters' movesets and feel from SA2, when they were making Sonic Heroes? I'm sure Sonic Team was experimenting behind the scenes and have found their own answers as to why certain things work and others don't. That said, I got back into Sonic Speed Simulator again, and, while I was at it, tried out some other Roblox Sonic games. Sonic Star-Drop and Sonic Onset Adventure stood out to me as some very nice, feel-good games. It's just, how do you turn these ideas into fully fleshed out games? Take the SSS route and add grinding? Now my mind is jumping to Penny’s Big Breakaway...
I just meant they arent *necessary* for a good sonic game, coming from the standpoint of seeing folks constantly discuss how 3d games should just try and replicate the 2d games physics, as if that will magically solve all the issues of 3d sonic (Not necessarily here, either, just in the broader fandom). And i'd point to sonic rush and the like as examples of how even 2d sonic games don't need them to be good. I also don't mean to imply to bloat a game with mechanics since its all hypotheticals anyways, i do prefer 2d sonic games having those physics. I guess to be more specific, I'm mostly saying I wouldnt mind if they *experimented* again, ditched the boost, and tried new ways to make a fast paced platformer, whether 2d or 3d, that doesnt necessarily conform to any of the styles we generally associate with sonic (classic, boost, adventure, etc). Not necessarily looking for a game like PBB but... I personally wouldnt complain either!
Yeah, no, it's important to innovate. Of course, all in the name of speedy blue hedgehog. I wholeheartedly agree with that. Don't shy away from something just because it's different. It's just, innovating for innovation’s sake can be really tricky, and their newfound focus on things that work is really nice, for a change. They should really aim for the best of both worlds. Two more boost games, then Sonic Lost World 2! You know what I mean. =P
We're not one game in since Frontiers to see if they're focusing on the right things though. Only thing we got is previews of half a game.
