I agree that FighterZ is the counter-example to @ajazz's point, because it's pretty much a normal (albeit excellent) 2D fighting game, with all tradition that this entails, but with mechanics that give it a Dragon Ball flavor. Budokai Tenkaichi, on the other hand, is an entire grammar unto itself, born out of the aesthetic principles of Dragon Ball combat. It stands on the shoulder of Virtua Fighter, like every other 3D fighting game, but its free movement creates situations that very few games in any genre dared to tackle. So it tends to be a bit more rough, yes. But both are perfectly legitimate approaches, and Sparking Zero looks pretty cool if you ask me. I think there's a lot of merit in making a Dragon Ball game that focuses on general destruction, fast-paced battles and freedom of movement; there's also a lot of merit in making a Dragon Ball game that focuses on uncompromisingly skill-based outcomes, high tension and self-expression through fighting technique. Both are enabling and creating different aspects of the Dragon Ball fantasy, and it doesn't mean the Budokai formula is inherently worse. It just walks a path very few other games have trailed. Burnout or Midtown Madness aren't worse racing games compared to (ssay) Forza Motorsport because they enable a fantasy of being as chaotic as possible with a car. But they commit to the bit, and build the game around that chaos. So I think it's fine to want playable-intro-cutscene. I think it's a good entry point as any, and you can make a good game out of it. Probably not a game I'll like, but I don't think committing to the bit means you're not trying to make a good game. It just starts from the effect rather than established syntaxes. May seem like I'm contradicting myself, but it's not that I personally enjoy it. I think it's valid though.
The spectacle of the intro is what we want and it can be such a simple addition that adds to the gameplay. Because when you think about it, stuff like Sonic rolling down that large ramp to launch himself to the chain leading to little planet...that is no different than the "Going Down" section of Speed Highway winding up to "At Dawn". It's cool, it makes the level feel real, it's the type of thing that Sonic does all the time in opening cinematics. Something like that, but less automated would feel even cooler. It may even be a nice end of level set-piece.
Echoing some scattered sentiments here. It's totally fine to start with the concept and develop mechanics around that concept, ie: "DBZ Simulator", or "Sonic Simulator". Some results being the Sparking and Boost games, respectively. It's also totally fine to start with mechanics first, ie: "Street Fighter clone", or "Super Mario Bros. clone". Some results being Dragon Ball FighterZ and Sonic 1, respectively. In Magic the Gathering expansion set design, this is distinguished as "top down design" and "bottom up design", respectively. The notion that the latter is a "problem" because it doesn't facilitate immersion into a power fantasy is extremely disagreeable. The notion that the latter is a "problem" for game feel is frankly bonkers. You're designing a game; no amount of incongruity with the lore of the IP being used as window dressing for the mechanics will make for a bad feeling set of gameplay mechanics. Let's apply that to FighterZ here. I definitely wouldn't say that it's problematically designed because I can't just fly into the air and destroy the planet and make Yamcha suffocate to death for easy wins when I play as Freeza. It will still feel good to body some Freeza player with a sick Yamcha combo. And this game is based on an existing IP; Sonic 1 was not an adaptation of anything, but was instead a platforming video game designed to compete with Super Mario Bros. I think they made a game that felt good to play. Modern games applying that same good game feel will still feel good to play, even if I'm controlling a character who 'canonically' reaches top speed faster than I can while controlling him. Gotcha. Speaking as someone who wasn't (and still isn't, really) a "Zelda fan" but loved BotW/TotK, my favorite of those mechanics you listed is the weather/elemental interactions: wood catching on fire, water conducting electricity, etc. I think with things like the elemental shields Sonic already has a solid in for those kinds of mechanics, and I think they could add some (interesting, though not necessarily needed) variety to enemy encounters, puzzles, and platforming challenges, even without it being open world.
My point was not about legitimate vs illegitimate. "Valid" isn't an interesting quality to explore to me because as long as someone is having a good time with it, it's already valid. Valid doesn't really have anything to do with my point. People can enjoy shallow gameplay if they want to, but I figured the point of this discussion was trying to design away from shallow gameplay. Designing for the power fantasy usually means designing against the push-and-pull and Budokai vs Fighterz is one of the best examples of that you can find. I've played a lot of both games and Budokai was far more weighted on my character picks than mid match decision making/execution. This doesn't mean there's no fun to be had with Budokai, but there's dozens of Dragon Ball games trying to recreate that exact experience. Right now, there's only really one Fighterz, and it came a lot further in one try than Budokai has in several.
The Budokai games are much more like typical fighters than the...open arena fighters the Tenkaichi games were. So there isn't really just "one".
okay, i'll admit that maybe fighterz wasn't the right example. i hold that it's commitment to dbz's aesthetic is more than trivial and in many ways is more effective than the budokai games, but you're right that it achieved things by disregarding core dbz tenets. the larger point i was trying to make is that "a game like the cd intro" is a coherent request that many actual 3d platformers have gestured towards in the last twenty years (many of which themselves inspired by sonic) and not the nonsensical fantasy that previous posts have made it out to be.
We've had 3D Sonic games, fanmade and official, focusing so much on the spectacle and flashy nature of the series for decades now. It's 2024, I think wanting a 3D Sonic game that's more coherent and grounded as a game first is a much more coherent request than asking for another game where Sonic "looks cool" I get Coolness is considered the benchmark for many Sonic fans, but I can guarantee that a Sonic game that builds solid game mechanics first over the spectacle can be just as cool.
per my original post on the cd intro, the point was not at all about "looking cool," and was in fact about solid game mechanics
What I mean when I say I personally want a playable CD opening is I mean it literally. I really want to be able to do literally every single thing you see Sonic do in that cutscene, and I have a problem with the notion that that's impossible, wouldn't be fun, wouldn't allow for a high skill ceiling, that translating a cartoon into a video game is insane, or that looking cool and feeling cool cannot be merged somehow. I see aspects of CD's intro across multiple games, even Sonic games, from 20 years ago. Remember when SA1 and 06 tried those "press X to not die" moments with Sonic bouncing off the environment? Looks awfully similar to him jumping from rock to rock below. Plenty of people here have pointed out how CD's opening shows Sonic fluidly moving through a diverse landscape, using environmental gimmicks, rolling down hills, and using momentum. Yet at multiple points, you also see him drop to the ground and take off, without having to stop and rev up a spindash, and I'm sorry, but I just don't understand why we can't have that and the kinds of momentum the fans champion at the same time. Why can't I run up walls? Why can't I skip across water? Why can't I spiral up to the tip of a narrow mountain, gaze out at my surroundings, and then roll all the way back down and off a ramp? Why can't I do all of this and still burst into high speed at the push of a button? We live in the year 2024, no longer bound by engine or hardware limitations, so surely an expert team of designers can make this type of control work without removing challenge and skill. Look, I don't study game design, I don't program, so if there's something that prevents all of this from playing well, I don't know what it is, so call me ignorant if you want. But I just don't see instant gratification with speed getting in the way of strong gameplay mechanics. I don't see it causing a focus on style over substance, since you obviously still see a lot of finesse and snappy decision-making here.
Sonic Heroes already did that and most people didn't really like it... The concept of just dashing from a landing though is essentially just the drop dash, doing that but running...well we could always bring back the mechanic of cancelling a spin from the Adventure games.
Isn't that what Frontiers tried to do? Whether or not it does so competently is a different argument but most of these things are possible to do in the game except the water thing for some reason. If they add slightly better implemented parkour and momentum for the sequel that'd be the ideal CD intro simulator fans have wanted for decades really. With the way the DLC shaped up with less reliance on automation, I don't think that's out of the question either.
What games? And I don't think it's a nonsensical fantasy. I actually said the opposite. it makes sense. It just hasn't been actualized yet in a way that makes for interesting game design, and it won't be unless you tackle all the issues that pop up. Because being able to shoot off instantly undercuts momentum. We have the entire history of the Sonic series to work off of as evidence. A lot of tools become functionally worthless if the player is never pushed to use them in interesting ways. You can still choose to include the systems anyway, but there's a reason why we never really bring it up in the boost games despite it technically still being there. As far as wall jumps go, I can't think of a way to implement a "triangle jump" type mechanic that you can freely use that doesn't just come off as clunky. See: The triangle jump, or the series's other attempts at it if you want an example. I've also tested a large variety of 3D fangames and these types of giga wall jumps are always where things get unwieldy. This isn't to say you can't do it, but every instance I can think of it done well was either heavily scripted, within a much more reigned in system with clear limitations on it's use, or in a 2D Sonic game outright which I'd guess isn't what's being discussed here, since the previous games accomplished all that stuff already and none of them are immersive enough, somehow. Contextualize all this with the fact that this would take place in an open world where you can seemingly approach these objectives from any direction, and none of this stuff is easy. It's not impossible: Tower climbing is one of my favorite things about Frontiers and that's basically a gamification of Sonic climbing the rock spire, but they still gamified it. It can't just be a thing you can do.
Does it? I would argue it only undercuts it if shooting off puts you at top speed, like the boost games do. I'm not asking to shoot off at top speed, I'm only asking for the middle man to be taken out when it comes to the kind of speed a spindash gives you. Momentum can be used to increase your speed from there, or slow you down if you go uphill. Or are you talking about something else? The triangle jump's problem was that it was a "press X to not die" approach, whereas Unleashed simply made it so failing the QTE either put you on a different route or still finished the sequence, but in a way that was less stylish. Contrary to others, I don't see scripted sequences as being the enemy. Small cinematic QTE sequences can still have a place in the series; I can't see a way to make drilling through a falling boulder "playable" otherwise. They just can't litter 60% of the level like what every 3D Sonic game has had for 25 years. As long as the level allows for a sufficient level of player expression and skill, I don't see small yet heavily scripted sequences as being an issue. In my mind, Sonic climbing the rock spire and then launching himself off a ramp is not dissimilar to Link climbing a mountain and then paragliding off. Before Breath Of The Wild came out, the idea of having Link being able to climb any wall was lunacy. "Like, how would that even work? How would that not break every single design element we've known from the series up to this point?" And yet the results speak for themselves. Obviously, one is an open-world action-adventure game and the other is a linear platformer built on arcade design philosophies, so the analogy isn't perfect, but the point is with the right limitations in place, I could still see it, even if it's a huge risk.
I'm personally more of a fan of relying on the core mechanics for everything like BOTW does, particularly because QTE sections suck ass. That's why Lost World's reliance on gimmicks bothered me so much because there was potential in its parkour system, which is why I hope Frontiers 2: The Frontiering tries more with parkour. It could work very well in an open world. I can see a mechanic where Sonic can jump on and off certain places like tall rocks work similar to the jump pads in SADX as long as which places those are are signposted naturally in the world (no yellow paint or condescending shit like that please), and even something like drilling through a boulder could be done with standard homing attack mechanics instead. Maybe Sonic could be able to walljump off everything and give the player some freedom to screw around with the mechanic? Maybe he can drill through weak objects instead of bouncing off them when he homing attacks those objects? You just gotta rethink these old mechanics like BOTW did.
The falling rocks section is the only part of CD's opening I don't really like. Sonic spin dashing not only midair but also straight upwards just looks unnatural and I wouldn't really care to adapt such a hyperspecific, impossible-to-control situation. Like I'm not sure if the spin dash should be able to shatter entire boulders to begin with. I guess spin dashing in midair maybe has some potential, at least for open world Sonic, but that would of course exacerbate this god-forbidden flying over terrain problem.
Him spinning again in mid-air is pretty much just how the homing attack works... He can propel himself in any direction even upwards, which was essentially what happened in that scene.
In my experience the homing attack is pretty unreliable from below and just...no, it's clearly a different thing. You don't have to charge a homing attack like he does the midair spin dash and there's no situation in any of the official games where you homing attack straight up to drill through a giant falling object so you can stand on it while it still falls. I think this might just be a weird fanboy opinion of mine but it just looks a bit too OP in an animation that I think otherwise grounds Sonic's speed and power really well. I also don't like SA1's 1-2-3 "wall jumping" mechanic and think they just shouldn't bother with stuff like that if the mechanics can't go beyond a cutscene where you press jump a lot. There's a SRB2 character mod of Sonic who can bounce off walls with a drop dash. I think simple, elegant solutions like that would work best if we're going for CD intro-tier player freedom with wall jumping etc.
I think there are only two ways to realistically make a game where you can literally recreate the entirety of the Sonic CD intro. Either have an absolute shitton of context-sensitive actions, or make it a full-on QTE ala Asura's Wrath.
The boost game mechanics are pretty good, actually. You have your normal jump that goes pretty high and is pretty floaty, which makes platforming easier. But it also has a lot of air drag, which can slow you down at times. So in addition you also have the short hop that, while shorter and not as floaty (so it needs to be used with a bit more care and precision) does not have air drag. So while you can't go as high, depending on the situation and your built up speed, it can send you much farther all while maintaining more of your momentum. Honestly, I think it is a good addition. It provides you options a little bit. It is incorporated pretty naturally and unobtrusively into the control scheme. If you don't want to care about it, you don't have to. And anything that is designed to help you maintain momentum is probably going to be a win in my book. With games like Generations, you have an air dash and an air boost. With the air boost you have something that gives a ton of momentum and sends you flying pretty far. However, exactly because of that extreme speed, it also needs to be rangled and used with precision to avoid overshooting stuff. There is also the fact that it does not reset your downward momentum as much if you fall. On the other hand, we have the air dash which is a bit slower, doesn't go as far, cancels a bit more of the downward momentum from falling, has Sonic kind of pause midair at the end fo it, and is general just easier to control. So it's a trade off of speed and ease and control. Again it provides options. The slide is a whatever mechanic. I feel the same way toward it as I do toward rolling. The only "gameplay" that could be argued to be here is reacting to situations that call for a slide. And once you play a level enough times to know it, even this reaction challenge ceases. They can make it to where if you want to maintain your momentum you have to time it, in particularly when your coming down to the ground right before the thing you need to slide under, but ultimately it's, again, a whatever mechanic to me. But I don't hate it. And I will say that if we're going to make the boost not damage enemies like in Forces, it is pretty fun to aim yourself at enemies while boosting and slide through them. Actually, that's a property the roll has as well that would be much more interesting in 3D than 2D if implemented properly. If you are not used to the fact that Sonic has weight and momentum to his jumps and don't really know how to work with that, you can easily overshoot platforms and such. In which case, the stomp is pretty good. It provides a way for those less skilled to be able to make it through. However, the stomp also kind of kills your flow a little bit, and so you eventually want to get to the point where you can control Sonic well and make it through platforming without needing it as much. But then you can take it to the next level. With normal jumps you platform like normal. But then you can whip out the extreme speed and range of the air boost to reach further areas faster and use the stomp in conjunction with it, timing the manuever, to precisely land, which is very fun and has a rhythmic feel to it. The boost games seperated the light dash from other actions which makes using it a bit more comfortable. There is a base enjoyment in timing usage of that thing in situations where usage of timing is relevant. Colors, a boost game, is the first mainline game where Sonic gets a double jump as part of his base moveset. And you know what, I like that, too. I'm not opposed to giving Sonic more things like that he can do in the air. Further, it was the last elemental shield ability he did not have incorporated into his base moveset. Also, when you get up some momentum, it is just another way to make even further jumps, jumps that allow you to do some skips but also that call for you to move with precision because you have to land. The drift is honestly GREAT. I get the preference to just have free movement like that in the Adventure games. And the weight to movement that makes the drift necessary in the boost titles... ...I can see what is meant when it is said that boost Sonic has too much weight to where he feels stiff or like a car and how that would not gel with traversing an open environment. In such a case, you want to be able to freely move around in any direction... ...but man, it's just so fun. And in a linear style of gameplay where you just have to progress down the path and take on the challenges that come at you, this is honestly a GENIUS thing to add to a Sonic game and I won't be convinced otherwise. Because yeah you could have it to where to take turns you just... turn... But this makes that process so much more involved and interesting than just turning the stick. You have to consider your position on the x axis of the screen, where you are on the track from the left side of it until the right, before you even start trying to take the turn. You have to drift to a specific degree in order to drift effectively, neither too much nor too little. And above all, it just FEELS satisfying. It's really great, and I would love them to focus more on it in boost level design. The other action they have given Sonic for navigating left and right at speed, in the quickstep.... Yeah, I'll admit that isn't that great. And sections of the level designed around the use of the mechanic are the weakest part of boost level design in my opinion. I think saving it wouldn't even be that difficult. Like, as is it's a very binary "press right or left to go one lane right or left" type thing. But they could make it more analogue, easy. Just make it to where you hold the quickstep buttons for left or right. And how long or short you hold it affects how far or short the quickstep moves you. Basically, make it a proper strafe and that could at least make it to where using the mechanic calls for more precision. As for the boost itself, I even have something positive to say about it. And that is with sudden reverses of direction. Like you're running right at full speed and all of a sudden you run face first into a spring facing the opposite direction. If you don't react to that, you're just going to start breaking as Sonic now wants to go left but you're still holding right. The boost smooths that out.
