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Unpopular Sonic Opinions

Discussion in 'General Sonic Discussion' started by Londinium, Jun 17, 2022.

  1. DefinitiveDubs

    DefinitiveDubs

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    Unpopular opinion of the day: "vibes" are overrated. Gameplay is supreme. Maybe Sonic is the wrong series for me to be a fan of if I believe this, but I have never been able to get into a game for its atmosphere, or its vibes, story, or soundtrack, without good gameplay accompanying them. I can't get into CD's vibes, because the game plays like crap. I can't get into Unleashed's immersive world design, because (half) the game plays like crap. And I can't get into Black Knight's genuinely well-written storyline because the game plays like crap. I'm strangely in a minority for thinking this, but I've never been in a situation where I thought lackluster gameplay "didn't matter" and that I was having fun regardless due to the soundtrack, aesthetic, vibes, etc. It's for this reason that I just can't bring myself to think Colors and Lost World are bad games, or even bad Sonic games, because, fucking, I don't know...I had fun. Genuine fun. I'm someone who loves the New Super Mario Bros. series, so you know where I stand.

    Now there are games where I have dismissed them entirely due to their storyline, so that's not completely true, but they need to seriously piss me off to do that. We're talking Sly 4 or Kingdom Hearts 3 levels of bullshit. Forces is one of those games.
     
    Last edited: Jun 26, 2024
  2. Gestalt

    Gestalt

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    @DefinitiveDubs It's so important to strike a balance. I'm currently replaying FFXV and this is all about its vibes. The systems are all there, but they aren't as perfected as you'd like them to be because Square Enix always strive for CG-quality graphics and that's not an easy feat to have. The idea behind them is what knocks it out of the park for me, though. You've got to innovate, or else you'll miss out on amazing stuff. Sonic Team might have overdone it in the past, but at least it was interesting.
     
    Last edited: Jun 26, 2024
  3. Azookara

    Azookara

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    Sonic CD isn't a bad game. It's a weird one, with strange level design and a lot of odd quirks. But I love playing it and it's certainly not bad for me to play. I think there's a method to the madness in it's design that forces you to approach it a way most Sonic games don't, and I love that! Maybe that's an unpopular opinion these days, considering how much shit I see it get in fan circles.

    Maybe the recent backlash to Sonic CD can be compared to the conversation surrounding SA1 these days. Sonic fans love extremes; we can't seem to get enough of them. Sonic Adventure can't simply be a flawed but still enjoyable game, it either has to be flawless kino and "better than Mario 64" or it needs to be seen "for what it is" as a terrible game no one ever truly liked except for a weirdo niche.

    Neither reaction seem like the works of a sane person, to me. Maybe as an individual opinion (which I can decide to agree or disagree on)? But as far as a narrative that blankets over the whole subject, I feel like it doesn't do anything to improve discussion. It just feels like we're trying to make everyone 'accept' something we don't really all believe. No amount of waxing poetic about Sonic Adventure's beauty or masking it with "it's DX's fault!" can make the flaws go away, sure, but trying to psychoanalyze sales figures or 2000s reviewers isn't going to convince me it's bad or unliked by the public either.

    But to tie back to CD, I think the issue is that when one of these extreme takes is really loud, the other feels the need to butt in even louder. I feel like the first two decades of fans/critics hyping Sonic CD is what has led to it's recent stark 180 with newbie fans. This is all too similar to how Black Knight was chastised (rightfully..) on release and the narrative has flipped to Sonic fans never shutting up about it. And sure, some people may have genuine reasons to dislike Sonic CD or like Black Knight. But the theatrics and narrative-pushing all come back to this way of thinking.
     
    Last edited: Jun 26, 2024
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  4. Deep Dive Devin

    Deep Dive Devin

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    [​IMG]
     
  5. Palas

    Palas

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    The distinction of "gameplay" and "non-gameplay" elements is always arbitrary, discretionary and decidedly not objective anyway. Stories are very often the information system that gives you a reason to make numbers go up and down in an RPG or inform what you're supposed to do, and if engagement with the formal system isn't emotional, what's the difference between a player and a debug routine?[​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    "Gameplay is all that matters" is if anything the most popular opinion about games there could ever be about games, yet it's completely wrong -- or rather, half-completely wrong, if Salen and Zimmerman are anything to go by.[​IMG] The "play" part of a game is a formal, closed system (which will then make the distinction correct), but a game is just a part of what makes us "play" (or play meaningfully) if we take them as an experiential system. Which, in this case, is what matters because we're talking about people here.
    [​IMG]
    So in Metropolis Zone, a lot of the frustration comes from the fear of losing rings to that fucker Asteron. You may have seen him in this post. It's pretty easy to spot it here. But in the stage, it's different: it may be hiding behind any wall at any time. Fortunately, its color contrasts nicely with the green walls. Unfortunately, many other elements also do. [​IMG] Fortunately, it gives away its presence with blinking lights. Unfortunately, there are many circular blinking lights in the background too. As a result, tension arises from your gaze darting all over the screen, looking for it while also keeping tabs on everything else, which is almost overwhelming. That tension will inform your decisions, undoubtedly a gameplay aspect that makes al the sense of the world in a last stage -- and yet, it's all just vibes.
    [​IMG]
     
  6. KaiGCS

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    Agreed, and this is an issue I see with Sonic discourse (and I guess internet discourse) in general lately. Many people are way too concerned with the "narrative," as if video game opinions have a core of objective truth that everyone who doesn't agree is just wrong about. And anything or anyone that doesn't fit that narrative needs to be written off or ignored because WE'RE RIGHT AND WE WERE ALWAYS RIGHT.

    Social media has become so good at building and reinforcing echochambers. I'm sure that's a big part of this. But I find it very disingenuous and also pretty sad. There's value in individuality and different points of view, and you shouldn't need need to rewrite somebody else's just to feel good about your own.
     
  7. I'm just tired of the meta narratives about this franchise. It feels like we've reached the point where the conversation isn't even about the products themselves anymore, but about the perception of them.

    It means there's very little constructive discussions in this series because everyone is too wrapped up in their personal feelings for anything productive.


    That said, I suppose part of the blame is on Sega for never really establishing any boundaries for Sonic, so literally anything and everything is considered "fair game" at this point.

    Pariah695 said it best, if Sonic can be anything, then that means he is nothing, and I'm not a fan of nothing.

    I think Sonic a series rife with potential, but nobody even understands what it even is anymore at this point.
     
  8. Chimpo

    Chimpo

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    I ran an impromptu experiment last year with a friend group. We called it the Sonic Streak. All it was is that each day, someone different in the group had to beat a random Sonic game by the end of the day and they had to stream themselves doing it while the rest of us watched. There was only one person who was big on Sonic, and that was me. Everyone else had different taste in video games or interest, nothing really crossed over. This thing should have ended by Sonic 3. Yet for some stupid reason, we kept it going for 21 straight days, everyone picking a different game that best matched their interest. The pinball guy played Spinball, the open world shlock enjoyer played Frontiers, the guy who didn't want to play any games picked Murder, the guy who consumes isekai anime picked Black Knight, the resident hardcore gamer beat Sonic Battle with 4 minutes left before the day ended, the big race head of the group played R, we had our puzzle game God gamer clear Mean Bean Machine, so on and so forth.

    There's so many forms of Sonic that can be consumed in so many different ways. Movies, comics, cartoons, and the games themselves are in so many different directions. I think its absurd variety is what has given this franchise strength to last 30 years, and I personally think that's a really cool aspect about it. We tried to think of any other franchise we could repeat this experiment with, and we couldn't come up with anything that would be anywhere as entertaining. Mario was the closest with all the spin off sports titles, but we would just be stuck with a majority of the experiences being a 2D platformer, a 3D platformer, or Mario Kart,. While all of those are excellent games, they would mostly have been the same for the most part. Sonic just has no God damn standard outside of the original games that any new title is pretty much a guaranteed b̶a̶d̶ new experience.

    The big sour point of course is that there's no real quality control and a lot of this stuff just ends up being mediocre to bad, but even trashier side ends up being enjoyable to a group.
     
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  9. DefinitiveDubs

    DefinitiveDubs

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    That is not what I said, though. I did not say it was all that mattered. I said gameplay is supreme. As in the most superior aspect. It is the most important element that trumps all others, and it's not even close.

    Not to direct this at you, but it's extremely irritating when I say gameplay is the most important element, only to be met by some galaxy brain smartass replying with "OH well it's not all that matters". This happens damn near every time. I don't know how people hear "gameplay is most important" and somehow also hear "gameplay is all that matters". Those are two entirely different statements.
    [​IMG]

    Obviously visuals and story contribute to a game's engagement. But if the game surrounding it doesn't play very well whatsoever, then it cancels those other factors out and I don't understand how others don't feel this way. Case in point: Jet Set Radio. Timeless aesthetic. Amazing soundtrack. Unique and weird style. Lots of creativity. Perfectly representative of Y2K. And yet it has some of the clunkiest actual ass controls and camera I've ever had the displeasure of experiencing. I can't focus on the other aspects when the gameplay is borderline impossible for me to get into. It's too distracting, thus I can't even bring myself to recommend the game to others.

    Most people seem to agree on a "balance" but they treat the two, gameplay and "everything else", as being 50-50 and I just don't agree. It's more like 80-20 to me. If a game is really fun but has a bland aesthetic, at least I will be glad I played it. If a game isn't fun, but has a great story, at best I'll be disappointed.
     
    Last edited: Jun 26, 2024
  10. Shade Vortex

    Shade Vortex

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    I for one think that Espio is the only good member of the (Modern) Chaotix and think he'd be much better off by himself- in fact, I kind of wish he'd get his own ninja sidegame, but that will never happen.
     
  11. KaiGCS

    KaiGCS

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    Very well-said. I like a lot of Pariah's videos, but I've always disagreed with the notion that "the real Sonic" is or was ever something quantifiable. I've seen way too many people argue that WAY too many completely different Sonics should be "the real one" to think otherwise. Sonic is to video game characters what Spider-man is to comic book characters, every variation is another interpretation, and that's something I love about Sonic. It won't all be for everyone, but whatever it is will always be for a whole lot of someones.
     
  12. Palas

    Palas

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    You'll notice I didn't say "gameplay isn't all that matters." I said, "the distinction of 'gameplay' and 'non-gameplay' elements is always arbitrary, discretionary and decidedly not objective anyway". The crux of it is that the implicit idea that one could like Sonic CD or Unleashed in spite of how they plays because the "vibes" make them worth it is, to me, wrong (and there is no theory to back it up). That's because the control schemes, progression systems and everything else you'd call gameplay have aesthetic values attached to them and, in turn, aesthetic elements are interpreted through the lens of gameplay (which is the Metropolis example I gave).

    So in Sonic CD's case, I really like the vibes, yes. I like how lonely it feels. Contemplative, sometimes. But gameplay is a part of that, what with how elements only seldom react to you or are sometimes broken, how empty a stage can feel after I find the transporter, how much time I'd spend analyzing every nook and cranny trying to figure out if I can find a way to go back to the Past. Gameplay is the vibe, not a separate realm. Conversely, I also love Sonic 3 & Knuckles because the way stages progress and throw different challenges at me helo create an embedded narrative of rising tension that is really satisfying when I finally beat the game. But that's part of the vibe too. To me, at least.

    Like I'm not trying to invalidate the way you frame and enjoy games. Everyone values different things in gameplay. But that's the thing: what I'm saying is, it's not a question of 50-50 or 20-80 because these elements are always interconnected. If a game has a "good story" but it doesn't tell it well as a game, I'm not sure I can actually call it a good story.

    Also I know I can come across as a smartass but it's not usually my intention. I just hold views that I know aren't very common on gaming as a whole so I try to back it up with the authoritative voices on the subject if I can, because I genuinely enjoy studying the academic side of it
     
    Last edited: Jun 27, 2024
  13. Azookara

    Azookara

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    As an addition, I wouldn't call the original Jet Set Radio a bad game either. Not just because of the mixture of it's other elements, but because the gameplay has good qualities that can be found admirable. I beat that game upwards of 3 or 4 times over the span of week a few years ago. When you learn what the game is putting out then you get into a state where you can play by it's rhythm, and it gives me a good time. Am I willing to accept not everyone is going to have the patience for that? Absolutely, and that's valid. Would I say JSRF is better to play in (almost) every way? 100%. But I wouldn't call it a definitively Bad game because of that. Just a game not everyone's going to like.

    I suppose my standards for whether a game is good or bad is if you learn to play by the game's rules and it doesn't pay back your expectations with reward or satisfaction. If you learn to master Sonic CD's mechanics or know it's maps, IE, you're guaranteed to be rewarded for your skills or insight. Meanwhile if you try to discover or master a game like, say, Sonic Heroes, the game will still just yap in your ear about lining up sideways and then have a 50% chance of slingshotting you into a pit because the loop's script decided not to work. These are not the same.

    If the former doesn't give you the necessary dopamine to like it then that's unfortunate, but it's one of those things you have to raise your arms at and go "it's not for me". I have to do that with the current open world Zeldas, for example. It is how it is.
     
  14. Wraith

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    I think you're missing the forest for the trees here a bit, you might value games holistically but a lot of people don't, and see gameplay as a stepping stone between cutscenes, narrative, characters or whatever else. This is just as erroneous a valuation as seeing gameplay as the meat and cutscenes/aesthetic choices as the fat, imo, but part of the OP's point is simply acknowledging that those people exist and are disagreeable, which is the type of winging this thread is for.

    Not everyone is viewing, say, Sonic and the Black Knight holistically. Some people are indeed viewing it as a good vehicle for cool cutscenes/setpieces and nothing more. I agree that this is a bad value judgement even if "subjectively" it's fine to engage with the game on that level.

    This also doesn't address the fact that a game's vibes can be discordant. Different pieces can be misaligned enough to be worth pointing out, enough to affect the experience. Maybe arguable if Sonic CD is one of these games but it's not like it's the only example listed. Like, I personally think Unleashed suffers a lot from this even if you can argue the contrast between the modes of play is intentional or unique or w/e.
     
    Last edited: Jun 27, 2024
  15. Overlord

    Overlord

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    At that point, why even play a video game? Why are you not watching a movie?
     
  16. Gestalt

    Gestalt

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    Has Hideo Kojima ever been asked that question?

    Also, I've been sitting in Front of my TV with a N64 controller pretending I was playing a video game as a kid while a movie was on. It was alright.
     
  17. Jaxer

    Jaxer

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    Not to judge anyone's tastes, but there's a pretty large gap between MGS4 and Sonic Unleashed as far as prestige goes.
     
  18. Gestalt

    Gestalt

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    Is it, though? From a consumer perspective?
     
  19. Jaxer

    Jaxer

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    If looking at this through a "consumer perspective" is all that matters to people, then video games are never going to be seen as an art form.
     
  20. Gestalt

    Gestalt

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    The way you consume doesn't matter. Video games stand on their own. Art has such a long history. Don't compare it to that.