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Unpopular Sonic Opinions

Discussion in 'General Sonic Discussion' started by Londinium, Jun 17, 2022.

  1. InfinityHelios

    InfinityHelios

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    It's kinda hard to explain, but I suppose it's because of how radically different it is from all other games? That's honestly the whole reason I never liked Classic Sonic, from 1 to Mania every game I played felt like it was the same thing over again, not helped by the fact I was never impressed with Classic's gameplay to begin with. To be honest, there was a time I actually liked New Super Mario more than Classic Sonic. Now though, I can't decide which I prefer. Not that it matters anyways. But to get back on topic, maybe I also love it because at times it feels like I'm playing Legend of Spyro Dawn of the Dragon, and I love that game.
     
  2. bombatheechidna

    bombatheechidna

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    It is radically different but probably has the worst controls out of all the boost games. I've never finished it because I always got bored with the Werehog stages. The daytime stages are somewhat fun but are janky compared to Adventure 1/2, Generations, or Colors. I bought it again from this store called Mckays on Xbox 360 which has old games and consoles. I took it back after a week. There are a lot of people who like it so I won't judge because I love Sonic Adventure even with its flaws.
     
  3. shilz

    shilz

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    getting my daily allowance of vitamin kk
    Valid. Considering the same composer went on to win awards for their non-sonic work, I'd say it's an absolute shame they're not still working on the series because we probably could've gotten some really awesome things from them.
     
  4. Still watching X. Just got to that scene aboard the ARK when Shadow turns around and I just gotta' say...

    I understand that people probably did not appreciate Chris taking Amy's role in Shadow's "character arc," but I gotta' say it: Chris did it a lot better than Amy. And it honestly isn't even close.

    His desperation and determination to get through to Shadow are so much better. The manner it is delivered doesn't sound as kiddish and goofy, (probably because of the tone) And just the scene having marginally better directing doesn't hurt either (the back and forth, actually showing the people of earth they are arguing about, Shadow not saying stupid stuff like keeping his promise to Amy...)

    Also, I don't find Chris that annoying in X. Though that might have more to do with his jp voice just not being as annoying as his english one. (Felt really bad typing that last sentence, tbh)
     
  5. CharlaChale

    CharlaChale

    Little Dolly Member
    Also helps that Chris is from Earth and Amy isn't in this continuity, so obviously the speech about Earth's worth would be delivered by the only one from there.
     
  6. jubbalub

    jubbalub

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    I have always wondered why Richard Jacques never returned to Sonic in a large capacity. His work elicits a really different feel that I don't think any other Sonic soundtrack has been able to capture.

    It's probably because of that one snide tweet to Tee Lopes a really long time ago. Bastards /s
     
  7. shilz

    shilz

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    Tbh it could totally be that. The current people running the "Sonic Pillar" (I guess they're it?) Come off as a high school friend group and criticism the way he did it seems like an easy way to get out of their favor and removed from the company. Pure speculation, and maybe it's really just "He left SEGA and then they did something he didn't like", but aside from that I can't really imagine any other reason he's not composed much of anything for them since when it would probably be really useful to have him on projects like Superstars, and he hasn't even been a "sound engineer" like he apparently was for Forces.
     
  8. HammerKirby

    HammerKirby

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    To me it just seems like you really like beat em up gameplay since you said Unleashed was your favorite Sonic game. Rise of Lyric definitely falls into that beat em up platformer hybrid that was really popular for kids games in the late 2000s and early 2010s like the lego games, the Crash titan games, Legend of Spyro games, Skylanders, etc. So it just seems to me like you really like that type of game (unlike me who lowkey despises that kind of game even tho I like both beat em ups and platformers :p)
     
  9. Lambda

    Lambda

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    That's reasonable, though I think if they just crashed right into better stories with better characterization everyone on Twitter and forums would be like "But... Tails was scared in Sonic Forces and now he's a hero? What gives! SEGA's just gonna pretend like that never happened?" You can never make everyone happy, but you have a decent shot of getting everyone to understand what's going on.

    I think SEGA wants to reeeally spell things out for us these days... for better or for worse.

    I'm not saying that's the only correct way to handle things, just that I think it was suuper intentional on their end.

    Also, I'm guessing the rough plans for Frontiers might predate their change in narrative direction. The fact that the entire game takes place on these quiet, isolated islands and the story proper doesn't really progress or develop until the last quarter of the game meant they needed to have the characters talk about something to fill time... so they decided to have them talk about themselves and use the opportunity to clean things up.

    Heck, before they decided to pull on Flynn and redo their lore, they might've been planning to have Pontac and Graff write gags for all the cutscenes! "Yeah, you go to this island and goof around with Amy, then you go to the next one and we make jokes about Knuckles being dumb, and then we go to the next one..."

    It wasn't THAT long ago TailsTube teased that Pink Haired girl we never saw again. Real solid chance she was planned for Sonic Frontiers back when it was called Sonic Rangers. Imagine how different the story concept could've been at that time... only, what, a year or so before release?

    All of this is to say, I cut SEGA/Sonic Team/Flynn some slack for Frontiers because I think Sonic as a brand was shifting during its development. I'm gonna be a pretty harsh critic next mainline game, though. They have a direction, a team, and a budget, and if this next game isn't up to snuff, it's 100% their fault.
     
    Last edited: Feb 28, 2024
  10. InfinityHelios

    InfinityHelios

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    Oh, and about that whole "Classic is from the past" thing? Yeah, I think that was a stupid idea. Seriously, now if something in the Classic series happens that was never even brought up in the Modern games, they're pretty much gonna come up with some nonsensical reason why. That's why I'm glad the Shadow in Superstars is just a costume. I bet you they would've just said something along the lines of "Oh, he used Chaos Control to go back because he wanted to see what Sonic's past was like". In fact, I'm still wondering to this day if Modern Sonic actually remembers about the chaos powers from Superstars and why he doesn't compare them to Shadow's abilities. All that isn't even addressing the sheer nonsense that is Sonic's eye color change. How does growing up change your eye color? Is Sonic wearing contact lens? And not only does Sonic's eye color change, but Super Sonic's as well. I can't remember if Super Sonic had black or green eyes in the Classics, but they sure as heck weren't red. What is this nonsense? This is not what happens when you age.
     
  11. Lambda

    Lambda

    Member
    I think it's gonna be a mess no matter how you do it. You raise legitimate points, but if Classic is another dimension then we're stuck wondering how/if the events of Sonic 1, 2, CD, and 3K happened in the Modern dimension. SEGA could say "Oh, the same events happened the same way across both universes" but then why are you maintaining different universes? Just to explain Sonic's eye color changing?

    My headcanon: you know how a lot of times in shows and cartoons people remember the past in Black & White? Sonic and Co. just remeber the past in the Classic 90s style. That also kind of impacts how they perceive Classic in Generations & Forces. It's a little silly, but it works for me.

    INB4 the next game or TailsTube actually explains how Sonic got his green eyes... since SEGA are so keen to spell everything out these days. LOL
     
  12. I dunno why classic Sonic being limited to pre-SA1 is such a problem. Its not like the Classic games have complex narratives with character development, at best there's a few cool cutscenes to tie together the game's excuse plot. Those games can introduce whatever they want and it won't be any different from the 3D games introducing whatever the hell they want and dropping it in the next game.

    I don't see any issue with tone contrast either, the series has never been tonally consistent. I always find it odd that people group the 00s games together and the 2010s together when Heroes and Unleashed have far more in common tonally with something like Colors vs SA2 or 06, and EXTREMELY unpopular opinion but Forces and Lost World's stories do feel more like some of the 00s games, at least in regards to the tone they're trying to convey.

    Edit: I get that there's differences in the writing between the two decades of course, but that doesn't change what the intentions are behind the tone for the game
     
    Last edited: Feb 28, 2024
  13. BigTigerM

    BigTigerM

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    I totally agree! I find it strange that they didn't go for a sort of middle ground, at the very least spell things out while also, y'know... Doing something about it. Being minimalist is cool for sure, it's got a time and place, but I don't think it was substantive enough to be enjoyed by itself.

    I think it confuses me more that a solid chunk of the cast is practically right in front of us, all by their lonesome, and ST couldn't bother to attach the one friend per island to Sonic's hip. Though cheesy, it sort of blows that they ditched that go-getter attitude from Forces. Having the ability to tag-team these new baddies could've made their existences feel more concrete, if not at least have Sonic's friends come along for the ride... They feel way too distant, otherwise.

    Isn't Sonic Team's whole problem that they've been stuck in this strangely obtuse, disassociative flux? Maybe I'm missing some key context, but SEGA and shifting Sonic's brand has almost been a consistant constant -- they move goal posts faster than Sonic can even reach them. All-in-all, 'proactive' is gonna be my new favourite word if Sonic Team doesn't shape up for their proper next title, haha.
     
  14. Lambda

    Lambda

    Member
    I am coming at it with some context I'm not sure everyone's aware of.

    This video has fundamentally changed how I view and understand SEGA and Sonic Team:



    I highly recommend the video to anyone who has ever been confused on why SEGA does what they do, but to make a long story short:

    The gambling company Sammy bought SEGA in 2004, creating SegaSammy. Sammy bought SEGA primarily to hide behind SEGA's family-friendly facing properties (the big one being Sonic) so people would not pay attention to their gambling business. For this reason, SEGA has limited Sonic Team's funding (and available time) because they care not about quality games, but just that Sonic games continue to come out so people will look at that and not Sammy. This is also why SEGA has never cared about Fan Games, unlike Nintendo. Fan Games are free exposure for their cover up. LOL

    I think it's worked so far, but things are changing.

    My own conjecture (which seems to have been proven true by SEGA's investor reports) is that after the first film was a huge success, Sammy realized there's more money to be made off of Sonic than they ever thought, which is why there's been a huge push lately. They're actually investing in it as a proper brand with a clear lore and identity, not just a public image they can hide their gambling business behind with some mid-budget games.

    I'm not saying Sonic Team is not at fault for anything, or that SegaSammy is totally different and better now; only that their perception on the value of the Sonic brand has appreciably changed in the past few years, and I see the flaws within Frontiers as a product of growing pains during this transitional period.
     
    Last edited: Feb 28, 2024
  15. CharlaChale

    CharlaChale

    Little Dolly Member
    Wow, that's some of the scummiest stuff I've ever heard, gosh.
     
  16. Lambda

    Lambda

    Member
    Yeah, it ain't pretty, but does explain a WHOLE lot. I've been trying to understand why SEGA has fumbled this brand so hard since I was a kid, and that video was a real "eureka!" moment for me.
     
  17. The KKM

    The KKM

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    IDW's Sonic the Hedgehog comic books
    Isn't it so convenient that there's an evil scummy company to explain away a conglomerate doing the same stuff every conglomerate does but allowing you to go "things were better when I was a kid"?

    That video's grabbing half a hand of facts and spinning it to conspiracy. Don't lose track of the fact the guy knows as much as you do about what's going on behind the scenes. You've got just as much context as before, you're not getting anything added.
     
  18. BenoitRen

    BenoitRen

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    I haven't watched the entire video yet, but I don't agree that Sega was as harsh as Nintendo. When emulation became popular, Nintendo cracked down on it. Sega, instead, was like "omg that's cool!" and contacted Steve Snake to work together.

    I think Sega was also kinder to the Game Genie, but I vaguely recall learning recently that this wasn't necessarily the case.
     
  19. Palas

    Palas

    Don't lose your temper so quickly. Member
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    I mean is it a conspiracy when it's laid out, bare and plain to see, in the not-that-fine print of investor reports -- a piece of context people don't usually read, actually?
     
  20. Lambda

    Lambda

    Member
    If you have any other theories, I'd be interested in hearing them, but "Big dumb evil conglomerate is big dumb and evil and that's all there is to it" or "<Insert Specific Person Here> has ruined Sonic because they're bad and dumb" has been the state of this discussion for suuuuch a long time now. It's super reductive, it's not productive, and certainly doesn't make for interesting conversation.

    I don't think I'm trying to "explain away" anything, and certainly I'm not looking to place all blame on "evil scummy Sammy". You're projecting all of that onto my post on your own.

    I kinda figured this was all rote by now, but: SEGA botched 2 add-ons and 2 consoles, all in a row, all before Sammy came along. They were a mess before the acquisition.

    Finally: I think it's terribly reductive to say you need insider knowledge to present new information or come to plausible conclusions. That's ridiculous. You look at available information, identify motivations and trends, and then synthesize it into something new. A lot of it comes right from SegaSammy's investor reports! It's not "a massive conspiracy to destroy Sonic", it's an essay attempting to analyze the motivations of the companies that manage the brand. You are welcome to think it's incorrect, but I find that it puts a lot of their decisions into a consistent perspective that makes a ton of sense.

    Precisely.
     
    Last edited: Feb 28, 2024
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