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Unpopular Sonic Opinions

Discussion in 'General Sonic Discussion' started by Londinium, Jun 17, 2022.

  1. The Joebro64

    The Joebro64

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    I think the games should bring back Sonic Says from AoStH. Make Sonic a fucking fed again
     
  2. Agreed. And they should make it even MORE apparent that they were cobbled together to get the FCC of their backs.
     
  3. HammerKirby

    HammerKirby

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    That's fair I guess. Maybe I'm just played the game so much I forgot what it was like to experience it for the first time. Although I will argue the boost can require skillful play at times, especially in Gens. Learning how to control Sonic while boosting can help you boost through sections that may seem impossible to boost through initially.
     
  4. CharlaChale

    CharlaChale

    Little Dolly Member
    You see I have no skill which is why I don't like Gens
     
  5. DefinitiveDubs

    DefinitiveDubs

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    Let me be clear: I'm talking about the video games specifically, not Sonic as a brand overall. Because while yes, kids still engage with Sonic merchandise, or cartoons, or movies (I'd be curious to see actual statistics, but I assume this is the case), they're not playing the actual video games. Similar to how plenty of children love Pokemon still, but it's more about the toys, the cards, the anime, etc. Not the games. Unfortunately, Sonic is a video game franchise, so this is kind of a problem.

    Have you been around children lately? Have you ever sat in a classroom, or cafeteria, and listened to what they talk about? I have, at least for middle schoolers. They only ever talk about the same three or four games: Fortnite, Minecraft, and Apex. Occasionally Roblox or Gmod. That's it. I have seen one or two Sonic t-shirts, but not once is Sonic ever mentioned in conversation. Kids just don't play these kinds of singleplayer games anymore. They pretty much exclusively play multiplayer-focused games, particularly games they can easily drop in and out of like Minecraft. And you're probably thinking "Oh it's always been like that, we played Halo when we were kids" but this is nothing like that. Fortnite and Minecraft aren't just games anymore, they're a form of social media. That's where we're at now. SEGA is well-aware of this; that's why ever since Forces, they've been listening more and more to what the adult fanbase wants from the series. Because that's the demographic that's actually buying and playing these games now.

    I know this is a hard pill to swallow, and yes, it sucks and I don't want it to be true, but it is. The only way for Sonic to appeal to children at this point is to either somehow become a simplified MMO like Destiny (Sonic Speed Simulator and the Sonic Minecraft collab were steps in that direction), or double down on multimedia like Pokemon has (which it seems like they're doing anyway). So the games themselves, the core of the franchise, should probably gear more towards adults at this point. Not that Sonic games need blood or swearing or anything, but they can't deliver the same juvenile writing and characterizations they used to anymore, so the characters themselves probably need to change.
     
    Last edited: Feb 21, 2024
  6. CharlaChale

    CharlaChale

    Little Dolly Member
    I assure you most pokemon fans are in it for the games, didn't scarvio sell 10 million in like 3 days? I doubt most of that was adults.
     
  7. HammerKirby

    HammerKirby

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    From my experience the Minecraft/Fortnite thing is more of a literally every child thing. But games like Mario, Sonic, Pokemon, etc. are still played among children. It's just a bit more niche. But considering there's not really great statistics on this, I can't really make a great argument here other than just telling you my personal experience. Although something tells me the copies of the Switch version Sonic Forces sitting in the budget section that were consistently restocked at any Walmart (in the US) I've been to even around like 2021 probably weren't bought primarily for adults. :p
     
    Last edited: Feb 21, 2024
  8. Chimpo

    Chimpo

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    Don't Forget! Try Your Best!
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  9. CharlaChale

    CharlaChale

    Little Dolly Member
    Childlike wonder!
     
  10. BenoitRen

    BenoitRen

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    You know, there are games children play that they don't talk about.
     
  11. This is preaching to the choir. Mascot platformers have been falling out of favor with the general public since the 2000s and the rise of MMOs and FPS. Even Mario doesn't exactly do the same numbers as it used to, even if its still massively popular compared to Sonic. But the fact remains is that children have always been the ones buying this stuff. If you shift the demographic for Sonic to be older, you're going to date it even more than it already is. Digimon has been doing the whole "age with the demographic" thing and the games have barely managed to surpass 500k units in six months.

    And it's clear Sega wants that mainstream attention and appeal; the past couple of years have been a concerted effort to homogenize the brand into something that's as broadly appealing as possible. Kishimoto and Iizuka have literally stated that they want high review scores for their games, hence why they've been chasing (desperately even) every popular trend for the past couple of years. And not for nothing, it's worked. I'd say the brand its as strong as its been in years between Frontiers and the movies, even if the actual video game products are subpar. As someone mentioned, Pokemon games literally sell off their name alone at this point and the latest games in the series are generally considered to be a shoddy mess. Sonic seems to be approaching that same approach, which would explain why both fanbases seems to have tons of overlap as of late.

    But when you get right down to it, Sonic's brand power is extremely weak compared to Mario and Pokemon's. They are the two of the most popular media franchises ever, and Sonic even crack the top 10 of multimedia revenue. Sonic could literally produce some of the greatest games of all time right now and they would still sell less than half of what an average Mario or Pokemon game would. That's the power of those two brands. Obviously this is the result of Sega mishandling and producing shoddy products for two entire decades, which has caused many people to just move on from Sonic, leaving only really the diehard fans to maintain its fanbase. Even when the series DOES manage to grab new fans, Sega usually puts out a mediocre product to torpedo any goodwill they had. I think the gaming industry is at a point where Sonic's existence is just tolerated and accepted; the series is going to keep producing content regardless of its quality and its fanbase will always be there to indulge in it. People will either check out the latest games and that will entice them enough to stay or they'll just move on when its not for them.

    This is kind of the state of Sonic right now... it exists.


    Now personally, I would LOVE for Sega to just accept its niche audience and for Sonic to just embrace being the best version of itself regardless of mainstream attention or not... but I have the feeling Sega would sooner pull the plug on the series once it stops being profitable.
     
  12. CharlaChale

    CharlaChale

    Little Dolly Member
    Oh, quick question for everyone. What's the general opinion on Sonic Riders? I found an old post just now from around RoL's release, and they were listing various blunders of the Sonic series and whatnot. They listed Riders among them which really confused me, I thought people liked Riders! I have it on PS2 right beside me (and sidenote it refuses to save to either memory card I have, if anyone can give me advice on that, please tell me) and I think it's darn fun from what I've played of it.
     
  13. Zephyr

    Zephyr

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    Yeah, I know I was definitely not talking about all the Sonic games I was playing in middle school and high school, because everyone would have thought I was a fucking loser.

    But rest assured I was buying and playing them.
     
  14. Bro, that was un-ronically back in the day.

    Man...
     
  15. charcoal

    charcoal

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    It reviewed poorly back in the day and for a while it seemed to be grouped into the pile of bad Sonic games with no real elaboration. It's gotten more popular recently however, with a burgeoning competitive community via netplay that's only growing. Me personally I think it's a really fun game that just doesn't teach it's mechanics well enough for the average joe to grasp them.
     
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  16. Kilo

    Kilo

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    I never played Riders much, I instead played Riders Gravity. However I do have a vivid memory of playing Riders on my friend's PS2 for like 1 race and immediately getting confused and frustrated by the air gauge. Granted, I was 5 and stupid, so I'm willing to give it a second chance, as has seemingly most of the community.
     
  17. Shaddy the guy

    Shaddy the guy

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    Her story in SA1 is already about independence to some extent, it's only later games that have her regress. Yes, the current idiom doesn't work so well as a progression from the version that really sucked, but that's not what I'm talking about. It is, in fact, totally natural for a person to grow in how they interact with another, even someone they have feelings for, and it need not necessarily come as the result of some grand epiphany.

    It's not about "forgetting" how pointless she used to be, it's about her character (and, currently, the idiom of having several playable characters) being popular enough nowadays that sticking her in a box for the majority of each game doesn't fly. You can complain all you want about Amy not being as passive as she was in SA2 anymore, but there's a reason she was never playable in that game's campaign. Yes, obviously she's different from the version that may as well not have been there at all. I would hope so!

    But both the mid-late 2000s and the last decade or so have changed the character from what she was in the Adventure games. It sounds like you're expressing a preference for one over the other and acting like that's somehow a more honest decision. My point is not to attack this preference, it's just that creepy weirdo Amy is not a more logical progression of the character than what we've got right now.

    And see, stuff like this is what makes me not sure you're really seeing anything about the current incarnation for what it is. The Amy of Frontiers does not have to dance around the subject of having multiple life-size hand-made Sonic puppets. Not only does Boom bring her feelings for Sonic up way more than most of the games have recently, her character is way more exaggerated, in ways it seems like fans of creepy weirdo Amy should be able to appreciate! She's an insecure, frustrated neurotic mess in that show, and it's one of the best sources of comedy.

    And if that were actually the status quo of the 2000s rather than something that existed in SA1 and was poorly-imitated by extremely tone-deaf writing, I might agree with you.
     
  18. Antheraea

    Antheraea

    Bug Hunter Member
    I agree with how it got even worse but honestly I always hated that prison island scene too, especially with the context that she literally has to get saved by Tails earlier because her first reaction to seeing "Sonic" is to immediately glom onto him. Her SA1 arc ends with her demanding that she'll "make that Sonic respect [her]" but in the next game she's back to just hugging him out of the blue like she's back in CD and asking him to marry her while he's in trouble instead of...doing cool shit to get self-respect and from respect from Sonic. Tails still has his agency from the end of his arc in SA1 but it felt like Amy's entire arc in SA1 got thrown out for the status quo. And then of course she's even more of a damsel in SA2 too as well.

    EDIT: now that I think about it, I do think some context is missing. Glommy Amy was 100x more annoying to me personally growing up because she was the only girl character in the games for a very long while, and it was pretty common in other cartoons for the one defining character trait of the "girl" to be the case as well. So it was super vexing when it seemed like they might actually let her grow from that only to rip it away in the next game (and then insult to injury to just keep it but then ignore it when convenient like in Sonic 06's ending. like, if we're going to keep this farce up at least have it be consistent). It's a bit less annoying now that we do have a bunch of cool lady characters to identify with.

    So like, let's set the scene here. You are an eight-year-old girl who is just absolutely mad for Sonic. Grew up with Sonic all eight years of your life. Your dad got the family a Dreamcast with SA1 on launch. All this time the one character in those games you are encouraged to identify with societally is the girly pink character whose only character traits are "loves Sonic" and "gets kidnapped". SA1 is a mixed bag - me personally, I always imagined myself as wanting to keep up with Sonic, but Amy is fucking slow. She still gets kidnapped as a thing and she has the fewest levels of all the characters (yes, less than Big. she has 3 levels.). But on the other hand she's finally playable and the end of her story with her finally getting Fucking Mad and going ham on the robot chasing her the whole game is still super cathartic.

    aaand then in the next installment her next appearance is unplayable and her first scene is still being clingy to Sonic and needing to be saved. again. plot-wise she literally could be replaced with another Chaos Emerald and it would not matter.

    that kind of thing is why Blaze is my favorite actually - she can keep up with Sonic, she's fucking cool and spews fire, and she gets to go super and spend the game collabing with Sonic as an equal and not a childish tagalong who just says things for laughs.
     
    Last edited: Feb 22, 2024
  19. Shaddy the guy

    Shaddy the guy

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    You're not wrong, I am giving that scene credit in a vacuum without considering that on the whole SA2's Amy is still a regression from SA1 in many ways. Frankly, if we look at it in-context, Sonic and Tails completely ignoring her and wanting to leave her behind is essentially justified due to the problems her presence ultimately causes, and that ends up feeling a little icky.

    And yeah, the antiquated gender dynamics of it all are definitely playing a part here -- I'm no scholar on feminist theory or anything, but it sucks that whether Amy is the manic strong-willed pursuer or The Normal One™, it's not a coincidence that she was the most prominent girl in the series. I've heard that her dynamic with Sonic was a reversal of Mario -- Sonic's not going for the girl, the girl's going for him and he'd rather not have his time wasted. That's all well and good, but it forgot to reverse the part where said girl is made helpless for most of her screentime. I can't think of a single thing in SA2 that wouldn't be improved by Amy bopping shit with her hammer when the chance arose.
     
  20. BenoitRen

    BenoitRen

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    Then Amy goes all badass in Sonic Heroes, and people still aren't happy.