don't click here

Unpopular Sonic Opinions

Discussion in 'General Sonic Discussion' started by Londinium, Jun 17, 2022.

  1. HammerKirby

    HammerKirby

    HammerKeebi Member
    117
    28
    28
    I actually disagree on the whole "too many city levels in Gens thing." It's a common critique and I do kind of get why people think that way. But at the same time, the city levels all have a totally different feel to them. Speed Highway is at night and has lit up signs and such everywhere. It has a purple bluish color palette and it goes up and down and all-around. City Escape is during the day, with it mainly being downhill and and having a mainly greyish color palette with blue skies. Crisis City is totally different. I'd argue it's closer to the lava theme platformer trope and the city level trope. Rooftop Run has a brownish color palette mixed with a blue sky. I could see an argument for it being a bit too similar to City Escape tbf. But Speed Highway and Crisis City have a totally different feel to them.
     
  2. Shaddy the guy

    Shaddy the guy

    Professional Internet asshole Member
    2,220
    1,211
    93
    OR
    I mean most of Unleashed is technically cities at one point or another, it's just kind of the point so people tend to excuse it.
     
  3. Antheraea

    Antheraea

    Bug Hunter Member
    for me it's the repetitive nature of the level vibes. Lava Reef Act 2 -> Metallic Madness -> Titanic Monarch are all mechanically-based levels and it just feels so repetitive by the end there.
     
  4. Blue Blood

    Blue Blood

    Member
    5,973
    855
    93
    It's a shame, because I really love the fact that Mania chose some very left-field levels to revisit. Take Oil Ocean for example; it's one of the worst levels in the Classic trilogy. But in Mania? The level is bloody brilliant. Similar things could be said for Metallic Madness. I always appreciate when nostalgic references don't just go for the obvious.

    But yeah, Mania unfortunately has too much of an end-game. I've felt this way for a while. Between Metallic Madness and Titanic Monarch, you have two final levels. Then both Oil Ocean and Lava Reef are penultimate final levels. That's a third of the game feeling like a final act. All of the levels therein have petty dark colour schemes too.

    It always feels like needless nitpicking when I criticise Mania in this way. Don't get me wrong, the game absolutely fantastic. And its faults are all obvious and easy to address, not like we're used to seeing with Sonic games where they're shoddily built by a team that seems to lack a coherent vision or understanding of good game design systems. But the flaws that Mania does have do ultimately make it a bit of a drag sometimes.
     
  5. I know it's not going to happen, but I would love for the movie to be as faithful to Shadow's stupid story from the games as possible, all the way down to including Black Doom.

    It's not really that I like it. It's just that I recognize that this stuff is what Shadow IS, and I would like that respected.

    I want these Sonic movies to actually be Sonic movies for once. A sort of celebration of the games, even aspects of them I don't particularly care for, rather than just generic kids films with a few surface level Sonic elements sprinkled in.
     
  6. Kilo

    Kilo

    That inbetween sprite from S&K's title screen Tech Member
    502
    524
    93
    Canada
    S1 - Metal Sonic's Challenge, Sonic 1 Rev01 ASMX Disasm
    Given Shadow Generations has Black Doom (Which seems to be a pseudo tie in with the movie, being a new game available around the movie's release) and Jeff Fowler's first experience with the Sonic series was working on Shadow 05's cutscenes I wouldn't be too surprised if it was at minimum quickly mentioned.
     
    • Agree Agree x 3
    • Informative Informative x 1
    • List
  7. Felik

    Felik

    Member
    1,872
    85
    28
    Hey, you take that back right now! Oil Ocean has always been one of my favorite Classic Sonic levels and my second favorite level from Sonic 2 after Chemical Plant. It also has a kickass music and interesting level theme unlike many of other S2 levels (what is Aquatic Ruins? Generic Ruins. What is Hill Top? Generic mountains, etc)
     
    • Like Like x 1
    • Agree Agree x 1
    • List
  8. Zephyr

    Zephyr

    Member
    3,558
    516
    93
    US
    Generic Ruins? Sir, they are Aquatic Ruins.
     
  9. Overlord

    Overlord

    Now playable in Smash Bros Ultimate Moderator
    19,295
    997
    93
    Long-term happiness
    Being faithful to the series' story is something the films have not only not done, they've actively stuck two fingers up at it. If they do go faithful for the 3rd film, it really will be actively mocking those who liked the series how it was before the hard left turn in the early 00s.
     
  10. DefinitiveDubs

    DefinitiveDubs

    The Voice Maestro Member
    1,039
    829
    93
    Cyber City
    Mega Man Zero: The Definitive Dub
    With the announcement of his involvement with SXS Generations, I gotta say: I'm tired of Ian Flynn writing Sonic.

    I think Ian back when he started out got a free pass having come after the atrocity of 06 & Penders, so he was a breath of fresh air reminding everyone that Sonic used to be, y'know, fun. Pontaff got this warm welcome as well when they first started, but when everyone stopped liking Pontaff, Ian was, again, a breath of fresh air. But his writing has never been great. The best writing he's done has been for either OCs or preboot Archie when he was allowed to do basically whatever he wanted with the SEGA cast, and even then, it wasn't necessarily that he was writing the characters better than SEGA was, it's just that the comics had a certain appeal. I can't explain it, but even if you didn't like the storylines of preboot Archie, it was hard to deny there was a fascination with seeing where this official Sonic product would go next, it was so different and unique compared to what we were used to.

    This appeal carried over to Mega Man, because Capcom had fewer restrictions than SEGA did with Sonic on what could be done with Mega Man's universe and its characters. But when Sonic got rebooted, Ian's flaws as a writer were put on full display, and I feel that with IDW as well. Because that appeal of the comics being "weird and different" is now gone, and in the 12 years since Archie got rebooted, he hasn't really improved as a writer. He has gotten better at accepting he'll never write the SEGA cast the way he wants to (IE not trying to go halfway with it and instead leaning entirely into SEGA's desires), but that's about it.

    Also, I know Sonic isn't popular in Japan, but I'm not sure how I feel about a western fan who grew up on SatAM being the lead writer of a Japanese shonen series. Isn't Sonic's "Japan-ness" part of what people like about the series? I'm not saying Ian doesn't get Sonic just because he's not Japanese, but there's a fundamentally different way in which someone like Maekawa would approach Sonic as opposed to someone like Ian. Those two cultures have totally different ideals when it comes to writing for a children's action-adventure series.
     
    Last edited: Feb 8, 2024
    • Like Like x 3
    • Agree Agree x 1
    • List
  11. Chaos Rush

    Chaos Rush

    Member
    600
    71
    28
    Yeah I have to say I would have no issue with Shiro Maekawa writing Sonic games again. Maybe I’m a little biased because I’m half-Japanese myself but those wacky anime plots of the early 2000’s is what Sonic is to me. I see a lot of older western fans accusing them of being “too dark” but to me SA1, SA2, S06, etc, that’s just kids anime level stuff (and I love it because of it)

    The Sonic from Colors to Forces felt like an entirely different character, and Forces’ depiction of Sonic’s world had me questioning if this was even the same continuity anymore (yes I’m aware that the “two worlds” thing despite never being mentioned in the games, may have been internal SEGA canon at the time, and as absurd as it sounded it wasn’t unprecedented since Sonic X did it). Glad TailsTube and Frontiers cleaned all that up however.

    I don’t mind Ian’s Sonic in Frontiers but I think we’ll have to wait another game or two to see what direction this new take goes in.
     
  12. Vertette

    Vertette

    Member
    350
    185
    43
    Yeah, I think it's too early to say how well he'll handle things in the future. From what I remember Ian was basically dropped in late in development to write dialogue for an open world game where the tone, plot and structure were already set in stone which doesn't leave a lot of leeway. For what it's worth I think he did well under those circumstances and I'm going to hold off from properly criticizing his writing until the next game he writes on.

    Maybe put a stop to the constant Sonic lyrics though :V
     
    Last edited: Feb 8, 2024
  13. If this is how you would feel if they start making actual Sonic movies, I'm not going to fight you on it. As for myself, however, I am just going to enjoy it.

    Not that I think they will. Now that I think about it, they can very easily do the elements very differently. For example, it seems very likely Maria is going to be in the movie from the casting. But imagine they turn around and say she doesn't even die. lol

    Did you seriously just go "Sonic is Fundamentally Japanese" on me?



    First video I ever seen from the guy. Generally he doesn't miss, but this is probably the worst video he is made in regards to the franchise, honestly. And after seeing this, I did not really seek out his content and start watching it until quite a bit later.

    Also, I think I am leaning even farther now into the whole "You have not really played Sonic games unless you've tried speedrunning them at least casually" mentality. Because after trying that out just a little bit, I have realized that so many elements of these games that generally don't matter at all now suddenly matter quite a bit.

    That Sonic has a spectrum of speeds he can travel at rather than one or two binary values matters significantly more. Like when approaching certain vertical "ramps" built into the terrain. You want to be going fast enough to get a good time, but not so fast that when you hit the ramp you'll go flying 60,000 miles into the air, wasting time in it that you could be spending progressing through the level. Precise braking is more of a concern.

    For certain jumps and skips, the basically infinite number of options that jumping off different angles of even the same slope matters significantly more.

    The fact that rolling on flat ground or uphill slows you down? So not every downward slope is one you want to roll down because of what terrain it may transition into? That actually matters now. Yeah, you can just jump out of a roll. But it may be more advantageous sometimes to just run or peel-out to begin with.

    Mostly in games with roll lock.

    The fact that you need to stop to do a spin-dash, and that it does not get you as much speed as you could get from terrain? Well, that is a con of it that you actually care about now. So now you want to avoid relying on it when you can, especially if you are already moving and especially if you are moving at a speed higher than the spindash can give you.

    In which case, the spindash is really not a bad mechanic, detrimental to the game at all. It really is just another option that you can use as you see that it would be the best course.

    The way that Sonic levels are designed, having many different ways to the goal, is something that affects your gameplay and the choices you make in how you go through the level to a significantly higher degree. Lot more intentionality there generally.

    Going out of your way for certain powerups matters significantly more.

    Trying to avoid taking damage when the i-frames won't allow you to bypass stuff matters significantly more as it kills your momentum. Otherwise the ring system takes away from that significantly.

    These are elements that generally just don't matter very much unless you are trying for decent times. Which, if I'm being honest, I don't think most people really go out of their way to do. Especially not in the Classics where there isn't a ranking system or whatever.

    Just play the game once or whatever. Maybe try for the emeralds. And then move on without really coming to appreciate what makes these games fun.
     
    Last edited: Feb 8, 2024
  14. Shaddy the guy

    Shaddy the guy

    Professional Internet asshole Member
    2,220
    1,211
    93
    OR
    I have plenty of criticisms for Ian but to act like he's far below the level of The Guy Who Wrote Two Thirds of Sonic 06 after a whole one game's dialogue and some comic books he hasn't lead for four years is very silly. Sonic's writing is not good because it's dependent on one culture or another, because that would first require Sonic's writing to be good at all. This series is shlock, and the sooner JP purists and Archie stans or whoever admit it, the more they're going to actually have fun with the series instead of looking like a load of lame weenies all the time.
     
  15. The Joebro64

    The Joebro64

    SAY HELLO TO MY CHOCOLATE BLEND Member
    3,067
    2,711
    93
    Sonic stories were at their best when the blue fuck didn't speak. The most he said was "yeah" and "I'm outta here"
     
  16. DefinitiveDubs

    DefinitiveDubs

    The Voice Maestro Member
    1,039
    829
    93
    Cyber City
    Mega Man Zero: The Definitive Dub
    I never said Ian was below Maekawa. I said there was a difference in how a Japanese writer would approach Sonic as opposed to an American writer. The sooner you admit that, the sooner you'll stop being a shitcock towards people's unpopular opinions, as you have consistently been this whole thread. Maybe.

    Saying the series is schlock is essentially like saying Sonic should have bad writing or is supposed to have bad writing, which is hard copium.
     
  17. Shaddy the guy

    Shaddy the guy

    Professional Internet asshole Member
    2,220
    1,211
    93
    OR
    I have nothing to say about "should", just that Sonic being shlocky is inevitable. It's better to ride it out and not make weird essentialist claims about the writers that don't scan as much justification, for opinions that don't actually need justifying. And I mean, clearly you are saying one is worse than the other, because that's what the post you just made was about.

    That said, you did prompt me to check whether I've "been a shitcock towards people's unpopular opinions" in this thread, and after several minutes skimming I've hilariously found that it really seems to be just you and yours. And I'm usually not alone, because you have a pattern of exaggerating wildly with pretty judgmental takes, and reacting really negatively when people criticize that, and that far eclipses the scope of this specific thread. Like I guess I butted heads with Kazz once? But no it's mostly just me reacting to you acting kinda shitty yourself, my dude.
     
  18. Love Pariah (even support his Patreon) and enjoy this video as well. What about the video do you dislike or disagree with? It seems like most people who dislike it feel like it's attacking their favourite piece of Sonic media (usually the comics from what I've seen).

    The series does not NEED a Japanese writer/developer/etc. but when I, and probably the majority of people here, think about the best and most memorable parts of the franchise, almost all of them came from Japanese creative teams (Mania being the big exception). I'm sure Prime, Satam, IDW, et al. are enjoyable, but they're just not Sonic.
     
  19. Honestly don't remember. And it has been a long time since I watched it, and I only watched it once. (I didn't even watch it before posting it just now.)

    Him speaking against the other stuff may have been part of it, admittedly. But from what I can recall, most of the points he made to support the argument were not very compelling or interesting.

    Like, for example, one thing I remember from it was him saying that Cream bowing when she meets some people is some great, significant part of the character that comes from Sonic being Japanese, and therefore if someone didn't write her to do that, they're messing up her character or something.

    Just...

    Huh?

    I don't know. Maybe I'll go back and watch it again.

    I say that is his worst video. But I don't remember it being bad. It is just not nearly as good as pretty much any other Sonic video he has made, which are generally all amazing.

    I love the guy. My favorite "Sonictuber" at the moment, because the guy's probably the smartest dude I know when it comes to Sonic. Some of the stuff he has said has even led to me adjusting some of my own views in regards to the series, causing me to appreciate some elements more, and finally getting me to crack down and try and play these games in a way that I generally don't and find fun in that.

    He is the reason I have "Sonic was always good" in my tag or username or whatever it's called. I have a lot more respect for how these games are designed than I used to. And honestly, going through some of my old comments on various online communities before that was the case makes me cringe sometimes.

    Not that I always fully agree with him.

    By the way, IDW is not enjoyable at all, actually. Or at least, not very much. And I have yet to see any thing from this series storywise that I've enjoyed more than Flynn's work with Archie.
     
    Last edited: Feb 8, 2024
  20. shilz

    shilz

    Member
    1,052
    274
    63
    getting my daily allowance of vitamin kk
    That sounds wrong? Like of course Sonic Team provides him with the basics, that's what they've done every time since Colors, outside of Forces which they wrote themselves, and then they still passed it off to American writers in an effort to make it more "paletteable". That's really the only reason English writers are involved, they don't want to put their all into a perfectly fine story and then have people disregard it (at best) or heavily make fun of it (at worst) because "Sonic shouldn't have a serious story" and all the other shit they threw at 06 and Unleashed and black Knight and who even remembers what else.
    because they don't think about it for 2 seconds before trying to find the Skip button and now they're shocked that the payoff for a story they didn't pay attention to is "Elise pulls a Snow White on Sonic".