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Unpopular Sonic Opinions

Discussion in 'General Sonic Discussion' started by Londinium, Jun 17, 2022.

  1. So, I kind of like Forces' classic music. It's not very good at sounding like a Genesis, but on its own it's not that bad. Certainly better than anything else in that game.
     
  2. Shaddy the guy

    Shaddy the guy

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    I don't particularly love it, but a lot of people act like Classic's Green Hill music is some sort of violence against their ears, and that weirded me out from the first reveal.
     
    Last edited: Jun 27, 2022
  3. DefinitiveDubs

    DefinitiveDubs

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    Speaking of water zones:

    I don't like them. I've never found them fun. Difficult, but not fun. A wise man once said "Mega Man is one of the few series to understand that water is fucking stupid to have in your platformer unless it somehow makes you more awesome." Think of how many times you as a Sonic player have had a negative reaction to a water stage. What if instead, you saw Aquatic Ruin and thought "fuck yeah, water"? Instead of water making you slow and clunky, it could allow you to power through it like Colors's drill wisp, except as a natural ability. Water inhibits Sonic's control to such a degree that it feels like fake difficulty.

    I think Sonic Team on some level were aware water in Sonic games wasn't fun, which is why after SA1, it stopped showing up for a long time (except for Dimps's games).

    And yeah, I know some people think it's SUPPOSED to be frustrating, because it's a "punishment" for not staying on the top path, but "supposed to be frustrating" is still frustrating. If a non-water stage isn't like that, I don't see why the water stage has to be. And that still wouldn't excuse the multiple times a Sonic Team-developed game will force you into a water section, regardless of your skill level.
     
    Last edited: Jun 27, 2022
  4. charcoal

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    I have only ever disliked water in labyrinth zone. I've always thought it was just a neat thing to add challenge while simultaneously rewarding skill for players able to avoid it.

    also also sonic running on water in hydrocity and boost games is cool af and i love it so much
     
  5. Palas

    Palas

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    How is this an unpopular opinion? This is like THE most popular opinion ever.
     
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  6. foXcollr

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    Yeah water is fun personally as long as there's a way to stay above it if you know what you're doing. Trudging along a single, linear route with no way to get out until quite a bit further down the line is the part that doesn't feel super fun. Feels like the natural inclination for humans is to try and find a way out, but some zones don't reward you for looking. You just have to go forward, and eventually you get out when the game lets you get out. Hydrocity Act 1 immediately presents you with two options: stay underwater or climb up and out, and that choice is pretty neat. Choosing things in general is neat and fun. Labyrinth doesn't (generally) let you choose. Labyrinth tells you you will eat your dinner and you will like it. Not the greatest, and a lot of water sections are like that so the negativity toward water levels is perhaps warranted
     
  7. DigitalDuck

    DigitalDuck

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    Alright, let's go for seven more:
    1. The original Sonic Advance belongs in the "classic series", to make 1, 2, 3K, Advance, Mania. Each game bumps the playable character count up by one, so they could be numbered that way too.
    2. CD doesn't fit in the classic series, it instead goes in the "Metal/vibrant series" of CD, Chaotix, Heroes, Colours I mentioned before. I think we're long overdue another entry in this "series" but I don't see it happening anytime soon. And yes, I find it strange that I'm asking for a game based on aesthetic when I generally only care about gameplay, but I do think we need more wackiness in our lives.
    3. Mania's Encore level designs are better than the autoplay originals. The changes are minor but they require more input to get through the challenges, which significantly changes the feel of the game.
    4. Sonic & All Stars Racing Transformed is a better kart racer than any Mario Kart. Track variety is so much better and the game is generally faster with a greater focus on racing.
    5. Team Sonic Racing is not great, but the team mechanic is a good idea and is well executed in the game (hint: you're supposed to give powerups to your team when you're ahead, if you're winning and they're not it's because you're not sharing). The game sucks because the tracks are incredibly boring and the missions seem mostly luck-based.
    6. Mephiles would be a cool character were it not for the fact that he's the literal shadow clone of a character that already has literal Shadow clones, who himself is a shadow clone of a character that already has shadow clones.
    7. Team Chaotix are great but they feel like they come from a completely different series. They should get their own game without Sonic (again), focusing on their detective work.
     
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  8. Palas

    Palas

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    I disagree btw. Water zones are "supposed to be frustrating" insofar as any stage is supposed to be frustrating, i.e.: it should offer challenge to the player and try to stop them. While underwater gameplay could probably be improved, having to use Sonic's movement -- frantically, sometimes -- to look for air bubbles or ways to get above the water is challenging in a way that no other gimmick can.

    In that regard, I'll take 10 Labyrinth Zones over Hydrocity Zone (and the way water is used in Sonic 3 in general, really): I'll much rather have a memorable zone that I had trouble with, but that I found satisfying to beat and felt like I understood how to use Sonic's moveset in a unique way, than a zone that played like every other zone in the game because the main gimmick didn't matter at all in the end.

    Which is probably a very unpopular opinion.
     
  9. DefinitiveDubs

    DefinitiveDubs

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    It's not an unpopular opinion to think water is misused as a gimmick. What IS an unpopular opinion is water, as a weakness, is shit. Water, the way it affects Sonic since the very first game, is a systemic issue with the franchise. Water is literally not fun. Not just challenging, unfun.

    While I'm fine with a time limit, water levels are typically supposed to amplify your abilities, not inhibit them. Or at least be different enough to be interesting. In Mario, water gives you free verticality. In Mega Man or Shovel Knight, it increases your jump height. In Spyro, it essentially gives you flight. In Sonic, it just...puts the game in slow-motion. There are ways of increasing the challenge for players who can't stay above it without forcing them to trod along at a snail's pace. Challenge and fun are not mutually exclusive things. Players seem to value multiple paths in Sonic games, but that philosophy is ruined if one of those paths is a frustrating chore to get through. Water levels in Sonic games cut the replay value of that zone in half, because nobody is going to want to explore the underwater sections.
     
  10. SystemsReady

    SystemsReady

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    and in Metroid...it also puts you in slow motion, which you often need to suffer through to get the one thing that will let you handle it (some form of the Gravity Suit) :V
     
  11. Sonic Advance 1's sluggish controls (sonic has noticeable issues with top speed and acceleration, and loses speed when he in the upward part of his jump arc) and occasional lack of flow in it's levels automatically disqualify it from belonging with the Classics, in my opinion. As does it's regression in aesthetics.

    The only times I have played Tails in a game that placed an emphasis on his flight capablities and enjoyed it was Sonic Riders 1 and some romhack that had levels built for him. I don't find flying over everything particularly interesting. Heroes didn't do it well either for an entirely different reason.

    Multiple routes don’t in themselves mean anything to me. Only in cases where you need to be paying active attention to notice them or they require skill to get on. And as far as encouraging skilled play and paying attention, there are other ways to accomplish both of those than alternate paths.

    Further, if they don’t take either of those, multiple routes are kind of worthless to me as a concept. And there even was a period when I felt even that was not enough, because as you replay a level and get better at it, it starts to almost feel like there is no point in the other routes existing, as you never see them.

    CD is kind of an exception, as you do have to interact with a bit more of the level to reach certain areas on the map for generators and stuff. Doesn’t really feel like going through or following a specific route.
     
    Last edited: Jun 28, 2022
  12. Palas

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    Hard agree here, and it ties into the talk about water that @DefinitiveDubs brought up. Multiple paths don't mean anything just because they exist: they're important because of the choices you have to make, and that depends entirely on the level being able to change your priorities as you play. This means a rather linear level, with the occasional shield, 10-ring or 1-Up monitor can be -- and often is -- a lot more interesting if the level is hard and frces you to go for the extra protection.

    Which is why I think Labyrinth works, and so does water: even if the paths don't change much, the things you do in them change a lot based on how safe or unsafe you'll feel, and so you'll make different choices whenever you cross the same path. And that's what really counts.
     
  13. ELS

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    I am not crazy about Ian Flynn but if it means getting away from the amazing comedy duo of the past decade or so I'll take him.
     
  14. E-122-Psi

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    I think Flynn is better suited to light hearted writing really. In the mainstream Archie comic he fell into a lot of the same pitfalls as his predessessors and trying to be too dark and grandoise (case in point the Charmy brain damage plotline), while nearly all his spin off stuff like X and Boom I've thought was enjoyable. Sure it's mindless fun, but that's kind of what Sonic is at heart and really, I find just trying to be endearing and fun incredibly underrated compared to making "epics".

    Heck he scripted the Origins cutscenes SOMEHOW. They are just dialogueless pantomime and they are BRILLIANT. That to me is as impressive feat in bringing a character and world to life, all show no tell. By contrast I felt Ian failed miserably to give the SatAm Freedom Fighters discernible personalities his entire run.

    Maybe Flynn would be better suited to animation writing, he seems to know how to exploit the format to its best potential.
     
    Last edited: Jun 28, 2022
  15. DefinitiveDubs

    DefinitiveDubs

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    In all fairness to him, that wasn't his fault. SEGA wanted Charmy to be dumbed down to his Heroes personality and without it happening offscreen without being mentioned, that was the best he could do. I certainly can't think of a way to do it that doesn't involve brain damage or at the very least his mind being reverted to that of a child.
     
  16. E-122-Psi

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    I dunno, plenty personalities got altered shrewdly without explanation throughout the comics run. Comics Charmy was rather different but always felt a bit wide eyed (like that moment he's puppy facing that taxi driver), sure they coulda gave him a childish comical edge without taking such extreme measures.

    I mean they made cheesy rapper Vector like his games self without screwing up his brain. :P

    Not to mention that, by even Flynn's own admission, brain damage ruined the whole appeal of it in the first place and made Charmy acting like a child less funny and more depressing.
     
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  17. BlueSkiesAM2

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    I don’t read the comics. Is this Charmy brain damage stuff in Archie or IDW? That honestly sounds so ridiculous.
     
  18. Xiao Hayes

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    I like Labyrinth zone, I like how physics change underwater and you have to approach navigation on a different way, plus having to choose either to stop to take an air bubble or risk to get to the next one is part of mastering any water level. Almost every other water level is shit in regards to being a water level, though not necessarily so in being a level on its own. I won't go below water in Aquatic Ruin because the top part is already good fun, while underwater has terrible level design. Hydrocity? Nice rollercoaster, but the level seems made to prevent you from going underwater unless you want to, something you won't do because it's not where the rollercoaster is. Aqua Lake (Act 2) took a better use of the water thanks to the bubble transport gimmick, plus it's nice to hop on water surface like a thrown stone on act 1. Tidal Tempest is a bit halfway there, mostly because the game concept both gets a benefit and a hindrance in having this mechanic and the level design isn't the best in that game.

    Speaking of which, Sonic CD's level design isn't great but isn't that bad either, it mostly suits the gameplay both as an obstacle and for support, but just tends to be too much of both sides.
     
  19. Mustapha

    Mustapha

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    You can make some great Sonic ROM hacks with nothing more than hex editors, a few utilities, guides from saxman, Nemesis and a few others, basic ASM knowledge and some insignificant but resourceful hacking notes.
     
    Last edited: Jun 28, 2022
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  20. Archie. Its exactly as said, Sega wanted Charmy to be similar to his game self and Flynn, in a huge lapse in judgement, decided that brain damage was the best way to do that. And yes, he has gone on record in regretting that to this day whenever its brought up.