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The younger fandom, and how they learned from exactly none of our mistakes.

Discussion in 'General Sonic Discussion' started by Josh, Jan 6, 2020.

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  1. Sir_mihael


    Agree on the Colours being far more preferable than any Adventure era story, but to me I feel like the Sonic OVA where I've always wanted the series' tone to be.
    Something about Sonic's slight chip-on-his-shoulder attitude and competetive nature I don't feel gets tapped into nearly enough these days (probably for good reason - I'm not the target audience anymore :V)
  2. Azookara


    yup Member
    Storytelling from Colors - Lost World sucks, but not really because of it's tone. It's problems are the same as Forces even when that attempted a more 'serious' plot: they don't commit to stakes, or even any idea they propose at all.

    One scene introduces a conflict and it immediately upends itself in the next cutscene. Villains are defeated in battles and disappear altogether without a word. Emotional story beats are given no stronger kick than an "aw man :(" before the writers toss it out with a convenient quip. There's no rising tension that makes the player feel like they're progressing somewhere, and payoff is often no grander than "we did it! :)". And most questions about any new thing's backstory or world-building is either ignored or refuses to be elaborated on.

    Things just kind of happen without weight; a far cry from even the wordless plot of 3&K.

    For that reason I can see why Heroes - 06's stories get a point over others for some, even if they are rather terrible. They at least know how to lay out and build up a narrative to get the player intrigued. Sure, that's a super low bar, but the fact that we're under it at the moment sure is something weird too huh?
    Last edited: Jan 7, 2020
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  3. Josh


    I mean, that's a Forces problem. A whimsical lack of genuine tension in favor of comedy bits and character beats was a great fit for the story and style that Sonic Colors was going for. I agree with what Overlord said - I think it's the best story 3D Sonic has ever told. It might've been straightforward, but Colors knew what it wanted to be, and it pulled it off well. But you absolutely CAN NOT take that same approach to a story outline as tension-filled as Sonic Forces, or you end up with this awful tonal mishmash.
  4. Azookara


    yup Member
    I don't think Colors' story is a very good one, myself. The lack of a rising tension that plays into the finale just doesn't feel very becoming of a series as full-throttle forward as Sonic; and feels like it doesn't connect with the player how important it is that Sonic must save the galaxy from Eggman's stranglehold. It feels too... casual.

    Maybe that's the kind of story you dig for a Sonic romp, but I've never jived with it as the baseline for a main-line Sonic game. And you're right, it definitely doesn't work in any instance where the stakes are cranked any higher.

    Personally my favorite 3D Sonic story is Adventure or Unleashed, which is somewhere in between. Everything gives you room to breathe where you need due to a looseish / casual-ish structure, but ultimately the plot when you move forward keeps itself focused on high-stakes events that directly effect the world introduced (and climax at an intense ending). All while keeping character interactions and shenanigans at the front and without getting too melodramatic! Their scripts can be kind of rubbish though sure, but none of these games are winners at that lmao.
    Last edited: Jan 7, 2020
  5. Josh


  6. Boxer Hockey

    Boxer Hockey

    This is really the thing that blows my mind when the discussions come up re: what Sonic can be in the modern age. Sonic doesn't exist in the Nintendo bubble where he can exist sheltered under an infinite budget and show his face but once a console generation. The AAA mascot platformer simply doesn't exist anymore outside of remakes.
    I am in the camp that believes Sonic is at his best when the ambition of the makers is on display, but course-correcting a damaged brand in a dead genre isn't as simple as "do the thing you did before but better".
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  7. I find it interesting out people young and old grow up with Sonic from different eras. However, I also also also find it that there are people now who were born a little after Sonic Adventure on the Dreamcast, and now THEY have kids. THAT freakin' blows my mind way more than anything else.

    (Goes to yell at cloud)
  8. MH MD

    MH MD

    20 years olds having kids? not that common these days
  9. Hukos


    I'm one of the older classic fans who doesn't mind the Adventure games - but not because the Adventure games are really all that great in a vacuum. They're not. It's just that 3D platformers are really fucking awful in general, so they have a "eh, it's not as bad" effect for me. So when I say I don't think they're that bad, that's because the starting baseline for the genre is basically rock bottom. There's only maybe a small handful of 3D platformers that I'd say unironically approach being good, so the adventure games controlling/playing like ass is right in line with my expectations for the genre as a collective whole. Is that damning praise? :V

    I don't have much desire to return to the adventure games, but I also think any kind of nostalgia for n64/ps1 era 3d platformers is seriously misguided nostalgia gone wrong, 90%+ of those games were trash. Dig deep enough and you can find ps1 3d platformers that make Sonic 06 look appealing. Your average 3D platformer is waaaaay closer to Bubsy 3D quality-wise than it is to Mario 64.

    As far as the Boost games go, I have a lot of issues with the Rush Tetralogy (counting Sonic 4 as a Rush game) - because those games are just kind of boring. I unironically like Unleashed/Colors/Gens pretty evenly, but I don't really think of those games as traditional 3d platformers. They're seriously flawed in a myriad of ways, but I think they're interesting enough to overcome said flaws at the same time.
  10. lopinjop


    Sonic 25th Anniversary Party Enthusiast Member
    The only way to escape the cycle is to accept the cycle lol. I'm excited for the next Sonic game to return to the Lost World style, whereupon Sonic Team makes a few more Lost World-esque games over the next 10 years, each decreasing in quality to the point that Boost fans are clamoring for a return to 2010s form, when Sonic was really Sonic!

    If we get some movie tie-in games, maybe we can have a 4th subset of fans! There's the potential for a brand new audience of kids to be introduced to Sonic with this movie, and after said audience grows up with a trilogy of Sonic Movies and an assortment of movie games, Sega can put out some new unholy experiment of a Sonic game in the 2030s or 2040s, whereupon these new fans will ask for a return to the 2020s, when Sonic was really Sonic!

    Too bad we didn't get another branching fan-set with the Boom series. That would have been fun. Oh well.

    Honestly though, I'm pretty detached from the Sonic series at this point. I was a massive fan and continue to enjoy creations, discussions, new findings, and hacks from the community, but I have *zero* expectations anymore about the franchise.

    As it pertains to this discussion, I'm not even particularly concerned about which kind of Sonic game is the best kind of Sonic game, I just want a good game. Be it 2D, 3D, Boost, or Boom, there's potential in all of these forms of Sonic that haven't been explored.

    I'd love to see a fully realized 2D sonic game in the style of Sonic 3 & Knuckles with all new levels, a comprehensible narrative told wordlessly, online multiplayer, local 4 player split-screen vs. and 4 player split-screen co-cop modes, tons of playable characters, a variety of bonus stages, and an adjustable screen zoom.

    I'd love to see a fully realized 3D adventure style game where each playable character is given enough development time to truly flesh out their move-set, levels are designed well around each character's gameplay, and the story is carefully told from the perspective of each unique character. Adventure set up a great framework, and it's a shame that it's never been truly improved upon. Tons of potential here.

    I'd love to see a fully realized boost style game that improves upon Generations mechanics, cuts Classic Sonic, and focuses solely on the 3D portions of boost gameplay. Tightening up Sonic's controls and designing solely around the 3D portions of boost gameplay could make for an excellent precision based game.

    I'd even love to see a fully realized Sonic Boom, where you play as 4 unique and fun to control characters simultaneously in an expansive and full open world. There are a ton of open world games to gain inspiration from these days, and if SEGA implemented the abilities of Sonic, Tails, Knuckles, and Amy in ways that are actually fun to control in an open world environment, that would be a lot of fun.

    It's so frustrating. There's so much potential among the games that have already been released, but none of them have ever truly been realized in the same way Nintendo has capitalized on everything Mario has done.

    Mario Maker 2 is arguably the pinnacle of 30 years of consistent iteration on 2D Mario.
    Mario Odyssey is arguably the pinnacle of around 20 years of consistent iteration on 3D Mario.

    If any one of the experiments Sonic Team has took us down were improved upon to the point of Mario Odyssey levels of shine, I don't think it would matter if it were 2D, Adventure, Boost, or Boom.
  11. Dark Sonic

    Dark Sonic

    Working on my art!
    I feel like most of the types of Sonic games we've got all have potential and sound good on paper, but Sonic Team doesn't like to learn from their mistakes and instead would rather start over. I'd prefer they only iterate on former ideas for a while and fix their flaws. Make a Heroes that isn't just ice skating on butter above pits, implement parkour in a game that's not a Galaxy clone, go back to Generations Boost mode and make levels with that, or make an Adventure game where Sonic has boost gameplay, Tails has Sonic's SA1 gameplay, and Knuckles has like werehog fighting but with more platforming, idk. Just stop hitting the damn reset button.
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  12. Speeps


    Eh, I think 3D Knuckles controls (At least the Adventure ones) break platforming because they're built for exploration, it'd be like sticking Breath Of The Wild Link in Ocarina of Time. Werehog's platforming gameplay IMO is more similar to SA1 Amy than anything.

    Also that cycle image up there is one of the most Boomer things I've seen this fanbase make.
  13. BraveYujo


    And here I was thinking... Maybe if they replaced Werehog with Knuckles in Unleashed the backlash would've been softer (or not).
    But here's the deal - Think about including the treasure hunting in the Werehog gameplay (only with Knuckles in his place) and shortening the length and time of the stages. The boss stages in Unleashed weren't that bad, so just refining it will suffice.

    I mean, Sonic Team kinda found the right gameplay style for Knux without even realizing it.

    Now about Sonic, maybe picking up the Parkour system, mixing Boost and Adventure formulas (perhaps making Boost the replacement for the Spin Dash, where you have to charge it before using it, or as a mechanic for certain sessions of the stages) would result in an entirely new gameplay for Sonic that pleases everyone. After all, SA1 is the (almost) perfect translation of the 2D formula. Refine it, include some successful elements from other games and great-but-not-so-well-executed elements (like the Parkour mentioned before) and we could get the ideal Sonic gameplay.

    Edit: I just realized maybe you could indeed charge the Boost in a way like the Light Speed Attack/Dash! I believe in one game Boost also functioned as the Light Speed Dash. Anyways, do it like in SA1! Charge the Spin Dash, when fully charged, you can use: the Light Speed Attack when near an enemy, trails of enemies, an obstacle or trails of obstacles; the Light Speed Dash when near Rings/trails of Rings; the Boost to cross large portions of something like some bodies of water or walls easily without getting momentum first in some instances. That or you can only use Boost in these sessions, and you have to get enough energy for it first, or else you only make a quick dash and lose speed.
    Last edited: Jan 8, 2020
  14. Gestalt


    Sphinx in Chains Member
    Agreed. I would say though that the same applies to Lost World. I dunno, but there's something about the cutscenes that makes them look really smooth.

    Just like they originally planned. Except that I want my Knuckles to be fast. :colbert:
  15. Chaos Rush

    Chaos Rush

    Regarding the stories and depiction of the character and the world they live in, one thing I liked about the Adventure-06 era was that it felt consistent. They tried to keep some sort of continuity between the games and things they did carried over to the next game - such as Sonic’s being able to use Chaos Control in 06 (having learned it in SA2), Shadow having moved on from his past by 06, etc. For the most part, SA1, SA2, SH, StH, and S06 all felt like they were part of the same world and same story, whereas Unleashed and onwards it’s a lot looser and the stories don’t feel as “important” if that makes sense. Azookara explained it pretty well in the post way above.
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  16. JaxTH


    Pudding Deity Oldbie
    Los Angeles
    Jack shit.
    Well yeah, Sonic 1 - Sonic '06 is coherent all the way though.

    Colors to Generations links up too.
  17. FollOw


    The sun sets forever over Black Water Park Oldbie
    That farewell sonic video is kinda funny. He'll be back. We all come back. No one can escape Sonic. No matter how hard we try we are all bound and connected.
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  18. The real Sonic Cycle is that we're all actually dead, and this franchise is our eternal hell.

    Damn you SEGA, let me quit already. :V
  19. Jay


    Hmm...not really sure what "gatekeeping" is in the social media world, but I like Sonic as long as it's fun to me.
  20. Nova


    Gatekeeping is the attitude that some people have in communities, fandoms, whatever you want to call them, that you must enjoy things in the right way to participate, essentially. It's dumb.
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